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15292.txt The Gannett Lecture Series March 24, 2005 "Has a Clash of Civilizations Begun?: Islam and the West" Presented by: Ali A. Mazrui Discussed by: Amit Ray and Paul Grebinger >> GOOD EVENING. WELCOME TO THE SPRING QUARTER SERIES OF LECTURES IN THE CAROLINE WERNER GANNETT LECTURE SERIES. MY NAME IS PAUL GREBINGER, AND I AM GANNETT LECTURER AND COORDINATOR OF SENIOR SEMINAR. TONIGHT'S LECTURE, "HAS A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS BEGUN? ISLAM AND THE WEST," IS THE FIRST OF REALLY TWO LECTURES, THE ONE SUCCEEDING ON APRIL 14th WITH DANIEL PIPES, AND "MILITANT ISLAM AND THE WAR ON TERROR" WAS ORGANIZED WITH THIS ONE AS A KIND OF POINT/COUNTERPOINT SERIES. SO, BASICALLY, IF YOU WANT TO FOLLOW THIS LECTURE UP TONIGHT, I THINK YOU WILL FIND IT VERY INTERESTING TO COME TO THE ONE ON THE 14th AS WELL. MY ROLE TONIGHT IS TO BASICALLY INTRODUCE THE SPEAKERS AND THEN I'M GOING TO SERVE AS DISCUSSANT THIS EVENING, THE LAST OF THE DISCUSSANTS, AND THEN FINALLY I WILL ACTUALLY BE THE PERSON IN CONTROL OF THE MOBILE MIC. IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION, I'LL BRING THE MICROPHONE AROUND TO YOU. YOU ASK THE QUESTION, PLEASE, HOLDING THE MIC ABOUT THREE INCHES FROM YOUR FACE. THAT WAY EVERYBODY WILL BE ABLE TO HEAR YOU AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE THAT VERY MUCH. I DO MOVE PRETTY QUICKLY, NOT TO WORRY. AND I'D LIKE ALSO TO INTRODUCE OUR INTERPRETING STAFF THIS EVENING BEFORE I MAKE INTRODUCTIONS OF THE PARTICIPANTS. FIRST OF ALL, INTERPRETING TO MY RIGHT IS MIRIAM WERNER AND YOU'LL ALSO SEE KIRSTEN BORKOWSKY. I THINK MIRIAM AND TERESA JONES WILL INTERPRET ALL THESE LECTURES THIS TERM; CORRECT? >> IF SHE CAN. >> THAT'S GREAT BECAUSE THESE ARE OUR BEST INTERPRETERS. I'M VERY PLEASED THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO BE HERE. LET ME INTRODUCE, FIRST OF ALL, Dr. ALI MAZRUI, AND THEN AMIT RAY AND FINALLY A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ME. Dr. MAZRUI IS CURRENTLY ALBERT SCHWEITZER PROFESSOR IN HUMANITIES AND DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE OF GLOBAL CULTURAL STUDIES AT BINGHAMTON UNIVERSITY IN BINGHAMTON, NEW YORK. HE WAS BORN IN MOMBASA, KENYA, AND COMPLETED HIS DOCTORATE AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY. SINCE THEN, HE'S TAUGHT IN A VARIETY OF UNIVERSITIES BOTH HERE AND ABROAD. IN HIS EARLIER YEARS, FOR EXAMPLE, HE WAS HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND DEAN OF THE FACULTY OF SOCIAL SCIENCE MAKERERE UNIVERSITY IN KAMPALA, UGANDA. HE'S BEEN DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR AFRO-AMERICAN STUDIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, ANN ARBOR. HIS MORE THAN 20 BOOKS INCLUDE "CULTURAL FORCES IN WORLD POLITICS" AND "THE POWER OF BABEL: LANGUAGE AND GOVERNMENT IN AFRICA'S EXPERIENCE," WHICH HE CO-AUTHORED WITH HIS WIFE, ALAMIN M. MAZRUI, WHICH BOOK WAS LAUNCHED AT THE HOUSE OF LORDS IN ENGLAND AT AN HISTORIC CEREMONY SALUTING HIS WORKS. HE'S CURRENTLY WORKING ON A PROJECT WITH HIS WIFE. IN 1998, PROFESSOR MAZRUI WAS ELECTED TO THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE OXFORD CENTER OF ISLAMIC STUDY AND THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE NATIONAL SUMMIT ON AFRICA IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AMONG HIS MANY ACTIVITIES, HIS OUTREACH TO NON-SCHOLARLY AUDIENCES THROUGH THE BBC AND PBS TELEVISION SERIES, "THE AFRICANS: A TRIPLE HERITAGE." THAT ALSO APPEARED IN BOOK FORM. THAT'S MY FIRST ENCOUNTER WITH Dr. MAZRUI, BY THE WAY. I REMEMBER THE SERIES VERY WELL IN THE 1980s. HE'S WIDELY CONSULTED ON AFRICAN AFFAIRS AND ISLAM CULTURE AND HISTORY. IN THE INTERESTS OF HEARING FROM Dr. MAZRUI THIS EVENING RATHER THAN TELL YOU ABOUT HIM, I WILL NOT LIST, EVEN BY EXAMPLE, THE MANY AWARDS AND HONORARY DEGREES HE HAS RECEIVED. I STRONGLY ADVISE THAT YOU DO NOT GOOGLE HIM UNLESS YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF EXTRA TIME ON YOUR HANDS. NEEDLESS TO SAY, I AM PLEASED HE WAS ABLE TO FIND THE TIME TO BE WITH US THIS EVENING AND LOOK FORWARD TO HIS TALK. HIS TALK WILL THEN BE FOLLOWED BY BRIEF DISCUSSIONS, FIRST FROM AMIT RAY, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE IN THE COLLEGE OF LIBERAL ARTS HERE AT RIT. HE COMPLETED HIS Ph.D. AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, ANN ARBOR. HIS RESEARCH INTERESTS INCLUDE SOUTH ASIAN ORIENTALISM AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF INDIANISTS IN THE-- THE TITLE OF A MONOGRAPH HE'S WORKING ON CURRENTLY AND ALSO LOTS OF STUFF WITH VISUAL CULTURE AND THE HUMANITIES. WHEN HE LEARNED THAT ALI MAZRUI WAS SCHEDULED TO PRESENT A LECTURE HERE, HE JUMPED AT THE CHANCE TO BE A DISCUSSANT. I'M PLEASED WITH HIS EXCITEMENT AND EAGERNESS. HERE I AM, PAUL GREBINGER, IN MY ROLE AS GANNETT LECTURER AND COORDINATOR OF SENIOR SEMINAR. I'M RESPONSIBLE FOR ORGANIZING THIS LECTURE SERIES. I MUST SAY QUITE STRONGLY WITH THE ADVICE AND CONSENT FROM FACULTY, TEACHING SENIOR SEMINAR. IN FACT, THIS LECTURE THIS EVENING WAS ONE THAT CAME FROM FACULTY DISCUSSION AND WAS STRONGLY PROMOTED BY ONE OF OUR SENIOR SEMINAR FACULTY, WHO ACTUALLY ALSO ASSISTED IN MAKING THE ARRANGEMENTS WITH Dr. MAZRUI. MY DISCIPLINE IS ANTHROPOLOGY AND I TEACH AN ANTHROPOLOGY/RELIGION COURSE IN THE COLLEGE OF LIBERAL ARTS, BUT I HAVE BASICALLY INSERTED MYSELF AS A DISCUSSANT TONIGHT TO PROVIDE SOME TRANSITION TO THE LECTURE THAT FOLLOWS ON APRIL 14th THAT I ALREADY MENTIONED: DANIEL PIPES, "MILITANT ISLAM AND THE WAR ON TERROR." THESE TWO LECTURES ARE BASICALLY CONCEIVED AS OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS OR POINTS OF VIEW ON A SIGNIFICANT ISSUE OF OUR TIME, AND I CERTAINLY HOPE TO SEE YOU ALL AT THAT LECTURE ON THE 14th AS WELL. SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND LET'S GIVE A WARM WELCOME TO Dr. ALI MAZRUI. (Applause) >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I'M SORRY; MY ARTHRITIS IS ACTING UP, BUT IT'S ALL RIGHT WHEN I'M STANDING. THANK YOU FOR YOUR VERY GENEROUS WELCOME. I HOPE YOU'LL CONTINUE TO BE GENEROUS AFTER YOU'VE HEARD WHAT I HAVE TO SAY. FIRST, MY THANKS TO MY HOSTS FOR INVOLVING ME IN WHAT I REGARD AS AN IMAGINATIVE SERIES OF LECTURES, AND I HOPE YOU WILL COME TO THE OTHER LECTURE WHICH MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT ADVERSARIAL TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY, THOUGH IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF Dr. DANIEL PIPES AND MYSELF WERE ARRIVING BEFORE YOU ON THE SAME DAY, SAME EVENING TO EXCHANGE IDEAS BEFORE YOU DIRECTLY. ANYHOW, BUT YOU WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LISTEN TO BOTH POINTS OF VIEW, BUT MY LECTURE IS NOT STRUCTURED IN ANTICIPATION OF Dr. PIPE'S AND I'M SURE HIS IS NOT STRUCTURED AS A REBUTTAL OF MINE. THE ISSUE OF CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS, AS MOST OF YOU KNOW, RECEIVED A NEW STIMULUS IN 1993 WITH AN ARTICLE WHICH WAS PUBLISHED IN "FOREIGN AFFAIRS." IT WAS REGARDED AS THE MOST IMPACTFUL, MOST INFLUENTIAL ARTICLE IN THE JOURNAL SINCE THE 1940s WHEN GEORGE KENNAN PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE RELATED TO THE COLD WAR. I HAVE KNOWN SAMUEL HUNTINGTON FOR 30 YEARS NOW AND WE HAVE DEBATED THAT ISSUE BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN EUROPE. THERE ARE THE AREAS WHERE I AGREE WITH HIM AND OTHERS WHERE I THINK HE IS VERY WRONG. BUT HIS THESIS THAT THERE'S A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS LOOMING, HAS IT NOW BEEN VINDICATED? ARE WE WITNESSING A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS UNFOLDING, ESPECIALLY BETWEEN THE WORLD OF ISLAM AND THE WESTERN WORLD? THE ARTICLE IN "FOREIGN AFFAIRS" IN 1993, HUNTINGTON ARGUED THAT NOW THAT THE COLD WAR HAD ENDED, FUTURE CONFLICTS WOULD BE LESS AND LESS BETWEEN STATES AND IDEOLOGICAL BLOCS AND MORE AND MORE BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS AND COALITIONS OF CULTURES. THE ARTICLE POSED AN INTELLECTUAL EXPLOSION AT THE TIME. IT WAS DEBATED FROM NEW YORK TO KUALA LUMPUR, FROM CAPE TOWN TO STOCKHOLM, AND IN MEDINA WITH ME AND HUNTINGTON IN ATTENDANCE. TWO YEARS LATER, HE COMPLETED A BOOK ON THE SUBJECT AND PUBLISHED IT. MOSTLY THIRD-WORLD CRITICS OF HUNTINGTON ARGUED HE HAD IT ALL WRONG, THAT WE WERE NOT HEADED FOR A CLASH OF CIVILIZATION AND CERTAINLY NOT BETWEEN THE WEST AND ISLAM. SOME INSISTED THAT THE UNITED STATES AS THE FINAL INTERNATIONAL ACTOR WAS NOT IN DOUBT. MY POSITION HAS BEEN DIFFERENT BOTH-- TONIGHT YOU'LL SEE WHY-- BOTH IN MY OWN CLASSES WHERE I TEACH AND IN MY DISCUSSIONS WITH SAMUEL HUNTINGTON. HE POSES THE ISSUE AS IF CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS WAS SOMETHING FORTHCOMING. HE COMMITTED A NUMBER OF FALLACIES. ONE WOULD BE THE FALLACY OF FACT WHERE THE CLASHES OF OTHER KINDS HAVE ENDED BETWEEN STATES; THEN FALLACY OF CONCEPT, WHETHER CIVILIZATION IS THE RIGHT CONCEPT, AND SECONDLY, AND THE MOST RELEVANT FOR US TONIGHT, THE FALLACY OF TIMING, TEMPORAL, THE ASSUMPTION THAT CLASHES WERE PART OF THE FUTURE RATHER THAN INSEPARABLE FROM THE PAST. SO THE TITLE OF MY TALK, "HAS A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS BEGUN?" IS YES, BUT IT BEGAN 500 YEARS AGO. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN, SAM?! THE WESTERN WORLD HAS BEEN COMMITTING ACTS OF AGGRESSIONS AGAINST OTHER CIVILIZATIONS FOR AT LEAST 500 YEARS. THERE WAS FIRST, IF YOU LIKE, THE GENOCIDE PHASE OF THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS. THESE WERE THE EARLIEST OF EUROPEAN MIGRATION AND SETTLEMENT OF THE AMERICAS AND LATER AUSTRALIA. EUROPEANS CLASHED WITH CIVILIZATIONS LIKE THOSE OF THE INCAS AND THE MAYAS, EFFECTIVELY DESTROYING THEM OR WEAKENING THEM. SO THIS IS THE GENOCIDAL PHASE WHERE WHOLE CIVILIZATIONS PERISH BECAUSE OF EITHER EUROPE'S GREED OR EUROPE'S CURIOSITY. SECONDLY, THE ENSLAVING PHASE OF CIVILIZATION, NOT WHEN WHOLE POPULATIONS WERE BEING ANNIHILATED BUT ENSLAVED. THE TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE EXPORTED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. THIS WAS THE WESTERN WORLD PERPETRATING AGGRESSION AGAINST OTHER CIVILIZATIONS. THE EVIDENCE OF THAT PARTICULAR CLASH IS EVIDENT IN THIS HEMISPHERE NOW. OF COURSE THERE ARE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OF AFRICAN ANCESTRY IN THIS HEMISPHERE. THE BIGGEST GROUP IS NOT LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES BUT IS IN BRAZIL. THE THIRD PHASE OF CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS-- WHERE WERE YOU, SAM HUNTINGTON, WHEN ALL THIS WAS HAPPENING? WHERE WERE YOU WHEN EUROPE HAD EMPIRES?-- THE IMPERIAL PHASE OF CLASH OF CIVILIZATION. THEY WENT AROUND CONQUERING SOCIETY AFTER SOCIETY, SUBJUGATING THEM TO EUROPEAN CONTROL. REMNANTS OF THAT ARE STILL AROUND. FORTUNATELY DURING MY OWN LIFETIME, ALTHOUGH I WAS BORN IN A BRITISH COLONY AND WAS ALREADY AN ADULT BY THE TIME THE BRITISH LEFT, BUT AT LEAST THEY HAVE LEFT IN THE FORMAL SENSE, THOUGH THEY HAVE OTHER FORMS OF INFLUENCE. SO THAT'S THE THIRD, IMPERIAL. THE FOURTH IS THE HEGEMONIC PHASE OF CIVILIZATION. THIS IS TRULY THE AMERICAN PHASE, THE AMERICAN POWER, ECONOMIC GLOBALIZATION AND THE AMERICAN DOMINION, INFORMATION, GLOBALIZATION AND THE AMERICAN INFLUENCE, COMPREHENSIVE GLOBALIZATION, AS THE "VILLAGE-IZATION" OF THE WORLD AND AMERICAN POWER, ONE SUPERPOWER AS A SECURITY SYSTEM FOR THE GLOBE, THE FIRST AMONG UNEQUALS. THE UNITED STATES IS SO FAR AHEAD OF ITS NEAREST MILITARY RIVAL THAT IT'S ALMOST A JOKE, IF THE NEAREST MILITARY RIVAL IS RUSSIA. THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE UNITED STATES SPENDS ON ARMAMENTS ADDS UP TO THE TOTAL OF THE NEXT TEN MILITARY BUDGETS ADDED TOGETHER. THIS HEGEMONIC PHASE OF UNPARALLELED SIGNIFICANCE. NEVER IN HUMAN HISTORY HAS ONE POWER BEEN SO FAR AHEAD OF THE NUMBER TWO BEHIND. WE'LL RETURN TO THAT LATER IN THE TALK. SO BEAR IN MIND THAT BROAD IDEA: WHEN DID THE CIVILIZATION BEGIN TO CLASH? FORGET POST-COLD WAR AGENDAS LIKE SAM HUNTINGTON'S. CIVILIZATIONS BEGAN TO CLASH 500 YEARS AGO. WHEN DID MUSLIMS AND THE WEST BEGIN TO CLASH? THEY DID CLASH DURING THE CRUSADES, BUT THE WESTERNERS HAD LOTS OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR REVENGE. MUCH OF THE MUSLIM WORLD WAS COLONIZED BY EUROPEANS IN MY LIFETIME; MUCH OF IT SOUGHT INDEPENDENCE DURING MY LIFETIME. I'M IN MY 70s. SO IT'S AS RECENT AS THAT. BUT LET'S NOW TURN FROM THE BROAD SCOPE OF CLASHES OF CIVILIZATIONS, OVER 500 YEARS ACROSS THE WORLD, AND LOOK AT THE DIALOGUE ON CLASHES OF CIVILIZATION ON AMERICAN SOIL. LET US EXPLORE THE PHASES OF RELATIONS BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE UNITED STATES, PRIMARILY IN RELATION TO THE AMERICAN SOIL BUT WITH CONSEQUENCES FOR THE REST OF THE GLOBE. THERE, TOO, THERE ARE PHASES. I TOLD YOU THE GLOBAL PHASES OF CLASHES OF CIVILIZATIONS ACROSS CENTURIES. NOW I'M GIVING YOU PHASES ACROSS ONE SINGLE CENTURY: SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE 20th CENTURY, PRIMARILY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ISLAM. PHASE ONE: WHAT CHARACTERIZED PHASE ONE? THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EURO-AMERICAN VALUES AND TRADITIONAL ISLAMIC VALUES. IN THIS PHASE ONE, LET US SAY THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN EURO-AMERICAN VALUES AND ISLAMIC VALUES, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS CLOSE. IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURIES, AREAS OF SEXUAL BEHAVIOR, GENDER ROLES, ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION, THE DEATH PENALTY, ALL THOSE ISSUES, ISLAMIC VALUES AND EURO-AMERICAN VALUES CONVERGED. IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, THERE WAS CONSIDERABLE NORMALITY OF SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE VALUES OF EUROPEANS AND NORTH AMERICANS AND THE VALUES OF THE MUSLIM WORLD. BUT WITHIN THE SAME PHASE, FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, LOOSELY SPEAKING, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EURO-AMERICAN PEOPLE AND MUSLIM PEOPLE, THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WERE DISTANT; THEY DIVERGED. SO RELATIONSHIPS IN VALUES CONVERGED; RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE PEOPLE DIVERGED. I WILL EXPLAIN SHORTLY. FIRST JUST ENUMERATE THE PHASES. PHASE TWO: LET US SAY APPROXIMATELY FOR NEATNESS, THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY. RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN EURO-AMERICAN VALUES AND TRADITIONAL ISLAMIC VALUES BEGAN TO DIVERGE. THEIR VALUES BEGAN TO DIVERGE AS AMERICA BECAME MORE ETHICALLY AND SEXUALLY LIBERTARIAN. SEX, ALCOHOL AND DRUGS WERE ASCENDING IN AMERICA. THE IMPORTANCE OF RELIGION DETERIORATED MARKEDLY IN EUROPE, THOUGH IT'S RELATIVELY STRONG AS CHRISTIANITY GOES IN THE UNITED STATES. THE STATUS OF WOMEN BEGAN TO IMPROVE SIGNIFICANTLY IN THE WESTERN WORLD. BUT ALSO IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY-- THE SECOND HALF IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE FIRST HALF. THE SECOND HALF, THE VALUES WERE DIVERGING. WHAT AMERICANS VALUED AND WHAT MUSLIMS VALUED, WHAT AMERICANS BELIEVED IN AND WHAT MUSLIMS BELIEVED IN WERE BEGINNING TO DIVERGE. ON THE OTHER HAND, RELATIONS BETWEEN AMERICAN OR EURO-AMERICAN PEOPLE AND MUSLIM PEOPLE BEGAN TO CONVERGE. SO IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, THE RELATIONS WERE GETTING BETTER; VALUES WERE GETTING MORE DIFFERENT. RELATIONS BETWEEN THE PEOPLE WERE GETTING BETTER. PHASE THREE: SUBSTANTIALLY WHERE WE ARE NOW, RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AMERICAN VALUES AND TRADITIONAL ISLAMIC VALUES HAVE CONTINUED TO DIVERGE, SO WHAT THE TRUE BELIEF SYSTEMS STOOD FOR WERE MORE AND MORE DIFFERENT. BUT SINCE SEPTEMBER 11th, 2001, THE TREND OF TOTAL CONVERGENCE BETWEEN AMERICAN PEOPLE AND MUSLIM PEOPLE HAS EITHER BEEN INTERRUPTED OR HAS BEEN REVERSED. MOST AMERICANS AND MUSLIMS BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND WORLDWIDE ARE REGRETTABLY IN THE PROCESS OF BEING PULLED APART. THE PEOPLE ARE MOVING APART; THEIR VALUES WILL CONTINUE TO MOVE APART. OKAY. THE FOURTH PHASE: THIS IS THE FUTURE. IF I SAY THE THIRD PHASE IS NOW, WHAT'S THE FOURTH PHASE? THE FOURTH PHASE ARE PROSPECTS. HOW DO WE GET OUT OF WHERE WE ARE? IT'S AN OPTIMISTIC SCENARIO THAT I BELONG TO, A REPORT WHICH REQUIRES THE FOURTH PHASE TO INCLUDE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES IN AMERICAN VALUES TO A GREATER HUMANENESS AND SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES IN THE MUSLIM WORLD TOWARD CATCHING UP WITH THE MARCH OF HISTORY. WE'LL EXPLORE THOSE IN SLIGHTLY GREATER DETAIL. FIRST PHASE: REMEMBER, THE FIRST PHASE IS THE VALUES OF THE MUSLIM WORLD AND THE VALUES OF UNITED STATES AND EUROPE WERE SIMILAR IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY. SO YOU LOOK AT THOSE VALUES. THERE WERE IN THE 1920s, BEFORE THE 1920s, YOU HAVE SITUATIONS WHERE ISSUES OF MODESTY, PROPRIETY OR FAMILIES, THE WESTERN AND THE MUSLIM WORLD SHARED A LOT. 1920s, AN INCREASE, ALMOST 50% OF WOMEN WHO HAD PREMARITAL SEX, BUT THIS WAS STILL A PERIOD OF CONSIDERABLE RESTRAINT ON SEXUAL BEHAVIOR. THERE WERE EVEN LAWS AGAINST SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE IN SOME STATES. IN THE MUSLIM WORLD, SEX BEFORE AND OUTSIDE MARRIAGE WERE STRONGLY CONDEMNED, WITH SOCIETIES EVEN HAVING HONOR KILLINGS FOR DAUGHTERS WHO STRAYED SEXUALLY. HOMOSEXUAL ACTS, ESPECIALLY MALE HOMOSEXUALITY, WAS CRIMINALIZED IN BOTH THE WESTERN WORLD AND THE MUSLIM WORLD. THERE ARE NUMEROUS EXAMPLES OF LAWS THAT MADE SUCH ACTIVITIES ILLEGAL, AND SOME OF THESE LAWS HAVE BEEN SUBSTANTIALLY ELIMINATED, ALTHOUGH MORES ARE SLOWER TO CHANGE THAN THE LAWS. SO IN GENERAL, RULES OF SEXUALITY WITHIN THE WESTERN WORLD AND RULES OF SEXUALITY WITHIN THE MUSLIM WORLD WERE VERY SIMILAR. GENDER AND FAMILY: THE INTER-WAR YEARS, BETWEEN WORLD WAR I AND WORLD WAR II, THE FAMILY IN AMERICA WAS STILL AS SACROSANCT AT IT WAS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD. UNMARRIED COUPLES LIVING TOGETHER, BABIES BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK SUFFERED FROM SOCIAL STIGMA AND THE IDEA OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGES OR EVEN CIVIL UNIONS HAD NOT BEEN CONCEIVED. IN THE UNITED STATES, WOMEN DIDN'T GET DIVORCED UNTIL AFTER A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT IN 1920. SO DON'T YOU THINK THE IDEA THAT WOMEN IN THE MUSLIM WORLD ARE MARGINALIZED, REMEMBER THAT IN THE UNITED STATES IT'S A 20th CENTURY PHENOMENON OF HAVING THE VOTE APPROVED. THE COMING WAS SOMETIMES AS SLOW AS COMING TO THE WESTERN WORLD AS THE MUSLIM WORLD. FOR MANY IN THE PERIOD, THE IDEA OF A FEMALE PRESIDENT WAS UNTHINKABLE. IN 1936, THE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS WHO WOULD VOTE FOR A WOMAN IF SHE WERE QUALIFIED TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WAS ABOUT 31%. IN THE ECONOMIC SECTORS OF SOCIETY IN 1936, ONLY 18% OF AMERICANS APPROVED OF AN AMERICAN WOMAN WORKING EVEN IF SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO SO FOR ECONOMIC REASONS. SO THESE WERE INHIBITIONS, OPERATED IN THE MUSLIM WORLD AND SEEMED TO BE OPERATING IN THE WEST. SO WHAT IS AT STAKE THERE ON THE ISSUE OF WOMEN'S LIBERATION? THE UNITED STATES AND MUSLIM WORLD WERE ON THE SAME STAGE OF RELATIVE SEXISM IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY. AND THEN THE TEMPORAL ISSUE OF CONVERGENCE, ONE IMPORTANT VALUE WAS THE BAN OF ALCOHOL IN THE UNITED STATES. THIS WAS NEO-ISLAMIC, FOR THE PROHIBITION OF ALCOHOL WAS FORCED BY STATES IN THE UNITED STATES. THEN A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT AGAINST ALCOHOL NEEDED A TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY IN CONGRESS AND APPROVAL BY THREE-QUARTERS OF THE STATES. SUCH A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE WAS RATIFIED ON JANUARY 29, 1919, AND WENT INTO EFFECT ON JANUARY 29th, 1920 OF THE 18th AMENDMENT OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. ON THE ISSUE OF ALCOHOL, THE UNITED STATES BECAME ALMOST ISLAMIC. THE DEATH PENALTY, ANOTHER AREA OF CONVERGENCE BETWEEN ISLAMIC VALUES AND AMERICAN VALUES HAS BEEN THE ACCEPTANCE OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AS ONE OF THE ANSWERS TO HUMAN DEPRAVITY. THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL ELEMENTS OF THE SHARIA LAW ARE THE ISLAMIC PHYSICAL PUNISHMENTS FOR CRIMINAL OFFENDERS. ONE OF THE PRINCIPLES THAT THE AMERICAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM CONTINUES TO SHARE WITH MUSLIM OPINION IN THE WESTERN WORLD IS THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE DEATH PENALTY. THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL ISLAMIC PUBLICATION OF THE DEATH PENALTY RELATES TO THE SEXUAL OFFENSE OF ADULTERY AND THE CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES IT'S A CAPITAL OFFENSE UNDER THE SHARIA. THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL AMERICAN APPLICATION OF THE DEATH PENALTY, LITERALLY UNTIL LAST YEAR, AND MAYBE STILL NOW, IS RELATING THE DEATH PENALTY TO THE MENTALLY RETARDED AND TO THE EXECUTION OF JUVENILE OFFENDERS, SO THAT THE WORST AMERICAN APPLICATION IS ON RETARDED OFFENDERS AND JUVENILE OFFENDERS. THE WORST ISLAMIC APPLICATION WAS ON SEXUAL OFFENSES AS CAPITAL OFFENSES. ON ISSUES OF RACE, ISLAM WAS, OF COURSE, AHEAD OF THE WESTERN WORLD. YOU DIDN'T HAVE RACIAL SEGREGATION WESTERN STYLE IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, WHICH WAS VERY TERRIBLE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THEN ATTITUDE TOWARD OTHER RELIGIONS: CONSIDERABLE DIVERGENCE. CATHOLICS SUFFERED IN THE U.S. IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY. JEWS SUFFERED, LET ALONE MUSLIMS. SO ATTITUDES IN VALUES WERE SIMILAR; ATTITUDES TO THE PEOPLE WERE HOSTILE. ATTITUDES TO VALUES CONVERGED; ATTITUDES TO PEOPLE DIVERGED. IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, SEXUALITY BEGAN TO CHANGE IN THE AMERICAS. AMERICA BECAME MORE SEXUALLY LIBERTARIAN. THE EROSION OF SOCIAL DISAPPROVAL OF PRE-MARITAL SEX AND EXTRAMARTIAL SEX, ADVANCES IN CONTRACEPTION, SEXUAL LIBERATION OF THE '60s, THE INVENTION OF THE BIRTH CONTROL PILL, USE OF SEXUALITY IN ADVERTISING, THE DEMAND FOR UTILIZATION OF FEMALE BEAUTY TO PROMOTE MERCHANDISE. WHILE AMERICAN CULTURE DOES GIVE GREATER FREEDOM TO WOMEN THAN DOES MUSLIM CULTURE, AMERICAN CULTURE EXTENDS LESS DIGNITY TO WOMEN THAN DOES MUSLIM CULTURE. SONS IN AMERICA RESPECT THEIR MOTHERS LESS THAN SONS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD, BUT HUSBANDS IN AMERICA RESPECT THEIR WIVES MORE THAN HUSBANDS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD. BUT WITH WOMEN'S LIBERATION, AMERICA HAS NOW OUTSTRIPPED THE MUSLIM WORLD BY GIVING MORE LIBERTIES TO WOMEN. BUT BY EMPOWERING WOMEN, THE ISSUE IS LESS CLEAR-CUT. THE UNITED STATES HAVE NEVER HAD A FEMALE PRESIDENT, YET TWO OF THE MOST POPULAR MUSLIM COUNTRIES-- PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH-- HAVE HAD WOMEN CHIEF NATIONAL EXECUTIVES: BENAZIR BHUTTO, WHO HEADED TWO GOVERNMENTS IN PAKISTAN, AND KHALEDA ZIA IN BANGLADESH. BOTH THE OPPOSITION AND GOVERNMENT ARE LED BY WOMEN. TURKEY HAS A WOMAN PRIME MINISTER, TANSU CILLER, AND INDONESIA, THE MOST POPULACE MUSLIM COUNTRY OF THEM ALL, HAS A WOMAN PRESIDENT, MEGAWATI SUKARNOPUTRI, WHO STEPPED DOWN LAST YEAR. MUSLIM COUNTRIES SEEM TO BE AHEAD IN FEMALE EMPOWERMENT, THOUGH STILL BEHIND IN FEMALE LIBERATION. FOUR MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAVE EXPERIENCED HIGHEST FEMALE LEADERSHIP LONG BEFORE THE UNITED STATES HAS HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT, FRANCE HAS HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT, RUSSIA HAS HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT, ITALY HAS HAD A WOMAN PRESIDENT, OR GERMANY HAS HAD A FEMALE CHANCELLOR. SO FOUR MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY BEATEN THE WEST TO THE PINNACLE OF POLITICAL POWER FOR WOMEN WHEN NONE OF THESE MAJOR WESTERN COUNTRIES HAVE OPENED THE DOORS TO SUPREME POLITICAL POWER TO WOMEN. ON ALCOHOL AND DRUGS, OF COURSE MUCH OF THE WEST HAS BEEN LIBERATED EVEN MORE. AND, FORTUNATELY, MY TEACHER IN OXFORD SAID THINGS THAT MADE ME REFRAME HIS BELIEF IN THE FOLLOWING: THE SINS OF THE POWERFUL, THE SINS OF THE POWERFUL ACQUIRE SOME OF THE PRESTIGE OF POWER. THE SINS OF THE POWERFUL ACQUIRE SOME OF THE PRESTIGE OF THE POWER. THE POWERFUL IS THE WESTERN WORLD NOW AND MANY OF THEIR SINS ARE SPREADING IN THE MUSLIM WORLD. SO AT THE TIME WHEN MUCH OF THE MUSLIM WORLD ABOUT MORE ALCOHOL, UNFORTUNATELY, MUCH OF IT HAS PENETRATED. DRUGS ARE NOT AS BAD AS THEY ARE IN THE WEST, BUT THE MUSLIM WORLD IS VULNERABLE TO THE SINS OF THE POWERFUL. BUYING GUNS, INVENTED BY THE WEST AND SOLD BY THE WEST, MUSLIM WORLD, HARDLY ANY OF THEM MANUFACTURE THEM. IT'S PART OF BUSINESS AND THE BOTTOM LINE IN WESTERN ARMS TRADE. AND ON THE DEATH PENALTY, AMERICA IS STILL DIVIDED ON THE DEATH PENALTY BETWEEN STATES WHICH REGARD IT AS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT AND OTHER STATES WHICH REGARD IT AS A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH PHILOSOPHY. SO IN GENERAL THE SITUATION IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY DID APPEAR TO IMPROVE RELATIONS BETWEEN AMERICANS, AS AMERICANS BECAME MORE LIBERTARIAN, AND IT WAS ALSO BECOMING MORE LIBERAL IN ATTITUDES TOWARD OTHER RELIGIONS, MORE TOLERANT IN ATTITUDES TOWARD OTHER CULTURES. SO THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, WHICH IS PART OF THE HALF WHERE MY OWN FAMILY HAS COME TO LIVE IN THE WEST-- NOT THE WHOLE HALF BUT THE LAST QUARTER CENTURY-- HAVE SEEN ENORMOUS CHANGES WHICH HAVE OCCURRED BETWEEN RELATIONS OF PEOPLE. VALUES ARE DIVERGING AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING CLOSER TOGETHER. BEFORE I EVER CAME HERE, I WOULDN'T HAVE DREAMT THAT I WOULD RECEIVE A LETTER FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON THE FAST OF RAMADAN, WISHING ME A BLESSED FAST OF RAMADAN. UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, MUSLIMS RECEIVED LETTERS FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WISHING THEM A BLESSED FAST OF RAMADAN. HILARY CLINTON HOSTED AN EID UL-FITR CELEBRATION IN THE WHITE HOUSE, BOTH IN 1996 AND 1998. VICE-PRESIDENT AL GORE VISITED A MOSQUE IN THE FALL OF 1995. THE FIRST TWO MUSLIM CHAPLAINS IN THE UNITED STATES ARMY, A MUSLIM CHAPLAIN IN THE U.S. NAVY WERE APPOINTED UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION TO SERVE SOME 10,000 MUSLIMS IN THE U.S. ARMED FORCES. SO THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN UNTHINKABLE JUST A COUPLE OF DECADES PREVIOUSLY. SO VALUES ARE GETTING DISTANT BUT PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO BE MORE TOLERANT. SO THE CLINTON GESTURES TOWARD MUSLIM WAS SUFFICIENTLY HIGH-PROFILE THAT A HOSTILE ARTICLE IN "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" IN MARCH OF 1996 RAISED THE SPECTRE OF "FRIENDS OF HAMAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE," A LEGEND THAT SOME OF PRESIDENT CLINTON'S MUSLIM GUESTS WERE FRIENDS OF ARAB TERRORISTS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT. THE CRITIC IN "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," STEVE EMERSON, HAD A LONG RECORD OF HOSTILITY TOWARD U.S. MUSLIMS. HIS TELEVISION SERIES ON PBS, "JIHAD IN AMERICA," ALLEGED THAT ALL TERRORIST ATTACKS ABROAD WERE ULTIMATELY PARTIALLY FUNDED BY MUSLIMS IN THE UNITED STATES, OF COURSE A PREPOSTEROUS ASSERTION. SO THERE ARE PEOPLE OPPOSED TO THE OPEN SOCIETY WHO CRITICIZED THESE GESTURES MADE BY THE AMERICAN POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT TO COUNT MUSLIMS AS PART OF AMERICAN SOCIETY RATHER THAN AS AN ALIEN INTRUSION. ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I WOULD HAVE WISHED DANIEL PIPES WOULD BE HERE BECAUSE HE'S MORE LIKE STEVE EMERSON, ENEMIES OF THE OPEN SOCIETY. SO ISLAM FALLS, PEOPLE WHO HATE ISLAM, BUT HE'LL TELL YOU THAT HIMSELF IN ANOTHER COUPLE OF WEEKS OR SO. SO IN GENERAL, PEOPLE ARE MOVING TOGETHER. THERE WERE HOPES-- THE WEST AND THE MUSLIM WORLD. THERE WERE HOPES ALSO ABROAD OF PEOPLE GETTING TOGETHER. I'M A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES FOR THE OXFORD CENTER OF ISLAMIC STUDIES, OXFORD UNIVERSITY IN ENGLAND. THE PATRON FOR THE CENTER OF OXFORD ISLAMIC STUDIES IS THE HEIR TO THE THRONE OF ENGLAND, PRINCE CHARLES. EVEN AFTER SEPTEMBER 11th, WE MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES WERE INVITED TO HIS OFFICIAL RESIDENCE FOR DINNER WITH THE HEIR TO THE BRITISH THRONE. THE MAIN DENOMINATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY HAVE BECOME MORE MUSLIM-FRIENDLY, ALTHOUGH THE MARGINAL GROUPS OF CHRISTIANITY HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE ISLAMOPHOBIC. IN THE DAYS OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND, PRINCE CHARLES WILL BECOME THE SECULAR HEAD OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND IF HE BECOMES KING, AND LAST YEAR HE WAS AWARDED A SPECIAL ISLAMIC PRIZE BY THE SULTAN OF BRUNEI FOR HIS CONTRIBUTION TO CIVILIZATION AND THE DIALOGUE BETWEEN THEM. AND PRINCE CHARLES SAYS HIS OATH OF OFFICE, IF HE'S ALLOWED, WILL NOT BE DEFENDER OF "THE" FAITH, NOT THE CHRISTIAN FAITH ANGLICAN STYLE, BUT THE DEFENDER OF FAITH AS A HUMAN EXPERIENCE, WHICH WOULD BE MORE INCLUSIVE, ET CETERA. THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS MILITANTLY OPPOSED TO THE IRAQ WAR. I'M TELLING YOU THAT THE MAINSTREAM CHRISTIANS HAVE-- THEIR POPE WAS WORRIED ABOUT WHERE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS TAKING THE WEST AND WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE IRAQ WAR ON CLASHES OF CIVILIZATIONS. SO ALL THIS WAS VERY GOOD, BUT THERE ARE SIGNS OF SLIGHT LOSSES SINCE SEPTEMBER 11th. THIS IS THE THIRD PHASE YOU'RE IN NOW. THE VALUES BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE WEST CONTINUE TO DIVERGE. NOW, AT LEAST THIS PART OF THE WESTERN WORLD HAS STARTED TALKING ABOUT SAME-SEX MARRIAGES. IT GIVES MUSLIM SHUDDERS, YOU SEE, AS THEY HAVE A MUCH MORE TRADITIONALIST SYSTEM OF THOUGHT. AND SECONDLY, WHEN THE UNITED STATES WAS DEBATING CLINTON'S MISADVENTURES WITH MONICA AND THE POWER ESTABLISHMENT SAID, "IT'S NOT THE ADULTERY, NO; IT'S THE LYING," THAT'S A VERY AMERICAN POSITION. IT'S NOT THE ADULTERY; IT'S THE LYING-- IT'S NOT AN ISLAMIC POSITION THAT WOULD REGARD ADULTERY AS A LESSER SIN THAN LYING TO DEFEND THE HONOR OF THE WOMAN... IT'S NOT AN ISLAMIC POSITION, IS NOT EVEN A EUROPEAN POSITION UNTIL RECENTLY. PEOPLE OF HONOR LIE TO DEFEND THE HONOR OF THE WOMAN. AND NOW THEY SAY, "NO, IT'S NOT THE ADULTERY. HE CAN DO WHAT HE LIKES. BUT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE LIED." THAT WAS A DIVERGENCE TAKING PLACE. AT THE SAME TIME, CLINTON BECAME ONE OF THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS TO MAKING ISLAM PART OF THE AMERICAN FABRIC RATHER THAN AN INTRUSION INTO THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE. BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE SUSPICION HAS BEGUN. SEPTEMBER 11th HAS AFFECTED US ALL. IT'S TRUE THAT I'M STILL ABLE TO GO AROUND SPEAKING OUT MY MIND BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES MAY BE-- MAY HAVE DETERIORATED SINCE SEPTEMBER 11th; MAYBE IS A LESS FREE AMERICAN THAN IT WAS WHEN YOU WERE BORN AND WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED, BUT IT IS STILL A DEMOCRACY. BUT IT'S A SUSPICIOUS DEMOCRACY. I WAS DETAINED FOR A NUMBER OF HOURS, WAS INTERROGATED BY THREE SETS OF INTERROGATORS, THE LAST OF WHICH WHO WAS DEFINITELY ANTI-TERRORIST TASK FORCE. THEY GAVE ME A CARD SAYING ANTI-TERRORIST TASK FORCE AND THEY ASKED ME QUESTIONS LIKE-- ESPECIALLY THE FIRST SET, YOU KNOW, WHETHER I BELIEVED IN JIHAD AND WHAT WAS MEANT BY JIHAD, SO I GIVE THEM JIHAD 101-- (Laughter) -- YOU KNOW SUBJECT OF JIHAD, INTELLECTUAL JIHAD... ET CETERA, ET CETERA. AND THEN THEY HELD ME THERE ALL THIS TIME AND GAVE ME ONE PHONE CALL. I CALLED HOME. I WAS QUITE SURE THAT THEY WOULDN'T ALLOW ME BACK TO THE UNITED STATES. I WAS REALLY BEGINNING TO CALCULATE THE REMAINING YEARS OF MY LIFE, YOU SEE... WHERE DO I GO NEXT? SO I CALLED HOME. MY WIFE WAS UNFORTUNATELY NOT IN. THERE WAS A YOUNG WOMAN THERE WHO TOOK THE MESSAGE. I SAID "I DON'T KNOW WHEN I WILL ARRIVE HOME, I'M NOT EVEN SURE IF I WILL ARRIVE HOME," SHE THOUGHT I WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE WEATHER. SO FORTUNATELY WHEN SHE CALLED MY WIFE WHERE SHE WAS AND SAID, "BUT HE SAID THAT WAS THE ONLY PHONE HE WAS ALLOWED," SO THAT PIECE OF INFORMATION ALERTED MY WIFE THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WEATHER; THAT IT MUST BE SOMETHING VERY SERIOUS. I HAVE ONE SON WHO'S A PROFESSOR OF LAW, ANOTHER WHO WORKS FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT; THEY HAVE FRIENDS. AND BEFORE LONG, THESE PEOPLE IN MIAMI WERE RECEIVING PHONE CALLS, AND IT ENDED WELL. IT ENDED WELL. (Laughter) BUT IT'S SILLY. I WAS PROBABLY THERE-- WHEN I ARRIVED, I WAS ONE OF THE OLDEST PASSENGERS, AND THERE HUNDREDS OF PASSENGERS. BY THE TIME THEY LET ME GO, I WAS THE ONLY PASSENGER. THE OLDEST PASSENGER WAS THE LAST TO BE LET GO. ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY HAD EITHER FOUND OUT WHO I WAS OR RECEIVED PHONE CALLS AND THE LAST ONES, THE ANTI-TERRORIST PEOPLE, THEY WERE EXTREMELY WELL-INFORMED BECAUSE I WASN'T COMING FROM AFGHANISTAN... WHY EVERY YEAR-- I ENTER THE UNITED STATES AT LEAST SIX TIMES BECAUSE I GO OUT OF THE UNITED STATES AT LEAST SIX TIMES. BUT WHY SUDDENLY THIS INTERROGATION? AT THE END I WAS COMING FROM THE CARIBBEAN. BUT THE MAN SAID, "IN TRINIDAD, DID YOU SEE A SCENE--" THIS IS A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL WHO CAPTURED THE WHOLE CABINET OF THE COUNTRY ABOUT A DECADE AGO AND HELD THEM RANSOM, AND HE WAS A BLACK MUSLIM TRINIDADIAN, AND HE SAID, "DID YOU SEE THE SCENE?" I SAID, "NO, I DIDN'T, BUT I TRIED." "SO YOU TRIED? "YES." "WHY?" "I TEACH COURSES ON ISLAM AND WORLD AFFAIRS. I TEACH COURSES ON ISLAM AMONG BLACK PEOPLE. IT'S MY BUSINESS TO LOOK FOR SCENES OF THIS WORLD." I INTERROGATED HIM. AT THE OF THE DAY THEY NOT ONLY LET ME GO BUT THEY WERE ALMOST APOLOGETIC BUT NOT QUITE APOLOGETIC. THEY WERE APOLOGETIC FOR MY SPENDING SO MUCH TIME BUT NOT APOLOGETIC FOR HAVING BEEN INTERROGATED. AND THE SUPERIOR OFFICERS REALLY GOT THE JUNIOR OFFICERS TO BOOK A HOTEL, BOOK ME MY FLIGHT THE NEXT DAY, ACCOMPANY ME TO THE HOTEL, CHECK ME IN AND EVEN GIVE ME $25. (Laughter) SO THERE'S HOPE; THERE'S HOPE. THERE'S A SENSE OF CONCERN. SO THERE'S SUSPICION AND THINGS ARE MORE DIFFICULT. MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED. MANY MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL THAN BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS, BY FAR. BY FAR MANY MORE MUSLIM PEOPLE, IN THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS, HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL THAN BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS. SO YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT KILLING THE INNOCENT AS LONG AS WE'RE IN UNIFORM; IT'S FINE. BELIEVE ME, YOU CAN CALL THEM SOMETHING OTHER THAN INNOCENT CIVILIANS, YEAH? BUT THE KILLING THAT'S BEEN GOING ON IN IRAQ IS MOVING INTO THE 100,000. THIS IS FAR MORE THAN WERE EVER KILLED ACROSS THE LAST 20 YEARS BY ANY TERRORISTS ADDED TOGETHER. SO AMERICAN AND ISRAELI RESPONSES TO TERRORISM HAVE LED TO THE DEATHS OF PEOPLE ON THE WEST BANK, GAZA, AFGHANISTAN... AND OCCUPATION, THREE OF THEM-- PALESTINE AND IRAQ AND THE KURDISTAN-- OCCUPATION. ESSENTIALLY, IT'S PARTS OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE UNDER SEPARATION, INCLUDING CHECHNYA IN RUSSIA; IN INDIA; KOSOVO IN WHAT USED TO BE YUGOSLAVIA, AND AGAIN THE BOSNIAN PHENOMENON. VERY OFTEN MUSLIM ARE PEOPLE MORE SINNED AGAINST THAN SINNING. ONLY HAVE TO PUT ON YOUR COMPUTER AND TOTAL THE VICTIMS OF THOSE SOCIETIES THAT I HAVE TOLD YOU AND ADD UP IN RELATION TO WHAT MUSLIM TERRORISTS OF ALL DENOMINATIONS AND ALL COUNTRY HAVE PERPETRATED. THEY'RE A FRACTION. THEY'RE A FRACTION OF WHAT MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED. SO THE NAZIS LEARNED QUITE EARLY IF YOU REPEAT A LIE OFTEN ENOUGH, PEOPLE START BELIEVING IT. THE NAZIS TOLD MANY LIES ABOUT JEWS AND GERMAN GENTILES BEGAN TO BELIEVE THE LIES, AND IT CONTRIBUTED TO THE HOLOCAUST. AMERICANS IN POWER TODAY HAVE TOLD LIES ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SQUARE AND THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE HAS SUSPENDED ITS DISBELIEF. NOW THOSE IN POWER ARE TRYING THE SAME PUBLICATIONS AGAINST IRAN. AFTER THEIR EXPERIENCE IN IRAQ, THEY WOULD NOT DARE TO OCCUPY IRAN. ONE OF THE THINGS WHICH SOMETIMES BRINGS TEARS TO MY EYES WHEN THEY SHOW THOSE PICTURES OF AMERICANS KILLED IN IRAQ DURING THE NEWS HOUR IS SAYING, "THEY LOOK LIKE MY STUDENTS. THEY LOOK LIKE YOU FOLKS," AND IT'S A LIST OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED: 21, 19, 23, ET CETERA. THE ONLY CONSOLATION FOR ME, THOUGH NOT FOR THEIR PARENTS, OF COURSE, IS THAT "BECAUSE YOU HAVE DIED, YOUNG MAN, YOUR COUNTRY WILL BE LESS RECKLESS ABOUT STARTING ANOTHER WAR. YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR LIFE NOT JUST FOR PATRIOTISM; YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR LIFE AGAINST RECKLESS DECISIONS TO GO TO WAR. BECAUSE OF YOU," I SAY TO THESE FACES, "IT'S MOST UNLIKELY THEY'LL ATTEMPT TO OCCUPY IRAN. THEY MAY BOMB IT; THEY WON'T OCCUPY IT. BECAUSE OF YOU, THEY WON'T ATTEMPT TO OCCUPY SYRIA. THEY MAY BOMB IT BECAUSE IT'S EASY TO BOMB FROM THE AIR, FROM THE AIR. YOU HAVE NOT DIED IN VAIN, YOUNG MAN OR YOUNG WOMAN, NOR HAVE YOU DIED JUST FOR YOUR COUNTRY; YOU HAVE DIED FOR HUMANITY. YOU HAVE DIED TO PUT RESTRAINTS ON ABSOLUTE POWER WHEN IT IS IN THE HANDS OF PEOPLE LIKE THE UNITED STATES AND THIS ADMINISTRATION." SO IN GENERAL, THINGS ARE NOT YET GOOD BUT THERE IS HOPE THAT THEY MAY IMPROVE IF CERTAIN THINGS HAPPEN. THE UNITED STATES IS INDEED AN EMPIRE BUT INTERNALLY, IT IS A DEMOCRACY. THE BEST WAY OF CONTROLLING THE EMPIRE IS THROUGH THE DEMOCRACY, AND WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN THE DEMOCRACY BEFORE THAT HAPPENS? FIRST, COMPARING THIS EMPIRE WITH PREVIOUS ONES: I'M A PRODUCT OF THE FIRST EMPIRES, EUROPEAN EMPIRES, BECAUSE I WAS BORN IN COLONIAL KENYA AND EDUCATED IN GREAT BRITAIN. THEIR EMPIRE WAS AN EMPIRE OF OCCUPATION, PAX BRITANNICA. THE UNITED STATES IS AN EMPIRE OF CONTROL, PAX AMERICANA. EUROPEAN EMPIRES HAD MULTIPLE CENTERS: LONDON, PARIS, LISBON, BRUSSELS. THE AMERICAN EMPIRE IS UNI-CENTER, BASED IN WASHINGTON, D.C. EUROPEAN EMPIRES USED MINIMUM FORCE, ECONOMY OF FORCE. AMERICAN EMPIRE IS PREDICATED ON A SHOW OF MASSIVE MILITARY FORCE. EUROPEAN EMPIRES WERE PREDICATED THAT THE COLONIES WERE UNDER EUROPEAN SOVEREIGNTY AND THEREFORE THE EUROPEAN COLONIAL POWER WAS LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE IF THINGS WENT WRONG. THE AMERICAN SYSTEM IS BASED ON IMPUNITY, SOVEREIGN IMPUNITY. BECAUSE YOU'RE OCCUPIED, IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH ME IF-- WITH ME; IT'S THIS IRAQI GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS BEEN ELECTED, ET CETERA. IN GENERAL, SOMETHING HAS TO HAPPEN INTERNALLY IN THE UNITED STATES IF WE ARE TO CONTROL THE AMERICAN EMPIRE. FINALLY, THE MUSLIM WORLD, WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN THERE? THERE'S ORTHODOX ISLAM, WHICH BELIEVES IN INTERPRETING OBSERVANCES AND TRADITIONS VERY STRICTLY AND BELIEVES IN A GOD OF JUSTICE. THERE'S MODERNIST ISLAM, WHICH SEEKS TO FIND ISLAMIC BELIEFS CLOSER TO MODERN SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, BELIEVES THAT GOD IS A GOD OF ENLARGEMENT AND MUSLIMS SHOULD CATCH UP WITH SCIENCE AND THEN LIBERAL ISLAM. THIS IS CONCERNED WITH UPDATED ISLAM SCIENTIFICALLY BUT WHAT IS MUCH MORE ABOUT UPDATING ISLAM ETHICALLY, MAKING SURE THE VALUES OF THE MUSLIM WORLD KEEP PACE WITH CHANGING STANDARDS OF BEHAVIOR. THERE IS A MAJOR CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THESE THREE FORCES OF ISLAM. ORTHODOX ISLAM CLING TO THE PAST; MODERNIST ISLAM SEEKS RECONCILIATION WITH SCIENCE; LIBERAL ISLAM SEEKS REVISIONS IN ETHICS. A VERY INTERESTING EVENT OCCURRED WITH THE FIRST ONE JUST LAST WEEK. A WOMAN CALLED AMINA WADUD, AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN, SHE LED JUM'AH PRAYERS ON FRIDAY, THE MOST IMPORTANT PRAYER OF THE WEEK. THIS IS A WOMAN LEADING A PRAYER OF THE WEEK. THE MOSQUE WOULD NOT LET HER DO IT. SHE DID IT IN A PROTESTANT CHURCH. SO A QUESTION: IS SHE THE ROSA PARKS OF MODERN ISLAM? ON THE BUS OF ISLAMIC DESTINY, IS SHE REFUSING TO TAKE A BACKSEAT AS A FEMALE PASSENGER? ROSA PARKS' DEFIANCE, YOU WILL REMEMBER, HELPED IGNITE THE MONTGOMERY BUS BOYCOTT AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES. IS AMINA WADUD'S DEFIANCE LEADING FRIDAY CONGREGATION, AS A WOMAN, IS THIS THE FIRST SHOT IN A MUSLIM REFORMATION ON THE GENDER QUESTION? WELL, IT'S TOO EARLY TO ASSESS THE HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF A JUM'AH PRAYER LED BY A SINGLE MUSLIM WOMAN IN THE CHRISTIAN PROTESTANT CHURCH. BUT WE KNOW THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SITUATION THAT REQUIRES CHANGE FOR GENDER EQUALITY. ALL THREE ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS-- JUDAISM, CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM-- HAVE BEEN SLOW IN RESPONDING TO FEMALE LEADERSHIP IN RELIGION. UNTIL THE 21st CENTURY, THE MUSLIMS HAVE NOT BEEN UNIQUE IN DENYING ULTIMATE RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP TO WOMEN. FEMALE PRIESTS IN CHRISTIANITY AND FEMALE RABBIS IN JUDAISM ARE PHENOMENA OF RELATIVELY RECENT TIMES AND ARE STILL HOTLY DEBATED. A FEMALE POPE IN THE VATICAN IS, FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE, INCONCEIVABLE. THE WHOLE VOCABULARY OF THE PAPACY IS ROOTED IN PATRIARCHY: POPE, FATHER, PONTIFF. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS NOT YET EVEN ACCEPTED THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN FOR ORDINARY PRIESTLY ROLES. THE ANGLICAN CHURCH HAS MADE MORE PROGRESS ON THE ISSUE OF ORDAINING WOMEN. THE ANGLICAN CHURCH, BETTER KNOWN AS EPISCOPALIAN IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR THE FIRST FEMALE BISHOP OF CANTERBURY IN THE PALACE IN LONDON. IN ALL ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS, THERE IS A CRISIS OF GENDER. IS IT A SIN TO THINK OF GOD AS A QUEEN INSTEAD OF A KING? WHY DOES THE TRINITY CONSIST OF TWO MALES-- THE FATHER AND THE SON-- AND ONE NEUTER, THE HOLY GHOST? WHY ARE JEWISH PROPHETS OVERWHELMINGLY MALE? PERHAPS AMINA WADUD IS INITIATING IN ALL THREE MAJOR RELIGIONS. AFTER ALL, ABRAHAM HIMSELF WAS A PATRIARCH. IT MAY BE TIME TO DIS-ABRAHAMALIZE THE ABRAHAMIC LEGACY. CERTAINLY FOR MUSLIMS, IT'S THE FOURTH DIMENSION OF THIS ERA. WE STARTED WHEN VALUES WERE CLOSE TO WESTERN VALUES BUT RELATIONS DIVERGED. WE ENTERED LATER ON WHEN VALUES DIVERGED BUT RELATIONS CONVERGED. WE ENTERED THE THIRD PHASE WHEN VALUES CONTINUE TO DIVERGE, BUT SEPTEMBER 11th WAS PUSHING US APART, AND NOW WE ARE SEEKING CHANGES FROM THE MENTAL IN THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF AMERICA AND FROM THE MENTAL IN THE MODERNIZATION OF ISLAM. PERHAPS TRUE CONVERGENCE LIES IN THAT LONG-TERM SCENARIO. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. (Applause) >> GOOD EVENING. I HAD SOME PREPARED REMARKS, BUT I THINK THAT THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE AT THIS PARTICULAR CULTURAL MOMENT OF A SO-CALLED CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS IS SUCH AN OVERWHELMING AND COMPLEX TOPIC THAT I'D LIKE TO SPEAK PERHAPS A BIT MORE, ODDLY ENOUGH AND PARADOXICALLY ENOUGH, MORE CASUALLY ABOUT IT AND HOPEFULLY THIS WILL FACILITATE SOME KIND OF DISCUSSION. PROFESSOR MAZRUI POINTS OUT THAT CLASH OF CIVILIZATION IS NOTHING NEW AND IF WE LOOK AT HISTORICAL CLASHES, WE'LL FIND THAT NOT 50 YEARS BACK, NOT 100 YEARS BACK, BUT 500 YEARS BACK. I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST IN LIGHT OF SOME OF THE REVISIONIST WORK BEING DONE, HISTORIOGRAPHICAL WORK BEING DONE THAT LOOKS AT THE KIND OF INTERPOLLINATION, SO TO SPEAK, OF CULTURES THAT WE KEEP IN MIND THAT CLASHES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AROUND, THAT CIVILIZATIONS IN FACT HAVE MORPHED AND CHANGED AND INDEED WHAT WE THOUGHT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A CIVILIZATION AT ONE TIME IS NO LONGER THE KIND OF ENTITY, DISCREET, COMPACTED ENTITY THAT IT ONCE WAS AND INDEED SUCH A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS IS IN A LARGE WAY MISLEADING. IF WE WERE TO GO BACK TO CLASHES INDEED AMONGST THE THREE RELIGIONS OF THE BOOK, SO TO SPEAK, WE CAN CONSIDER PERHAPS CORDOBA, SPAIN, IN THE TWELFTH CENTURY WHERE, WITHIN A DECADE OF ONE ANOTHER, MAIMONIDES, THE GREAT JEWISH PHILOSOPHER, AND AVERROES, THE GREAT ARAB PHILOSOPHER, ARE WORKING AND RESPONDING TO ONE ANOTHER'S WORK IN A REMARKABLE KIND OF ERA OF HYBRIDITY THAT IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE ARAB CIVILIZATION OF THE TIME. BUT CAN YOU STILL SPEAK OF CIVILIZATIONS IN THE 20th CENTURY? CAN WE SPEAK OF CIVILIZATIONS AFTER EMPIRE? AND I MEAN THIS TO BE A KIND OF-- A RAY OF-- PERHAPS APPROACHING THIS PROBLEM FROM A DIFFERENT WAY, TO INTERROGATE IT IN LIGHT OF NOT JUST THE KIND OF POST-MODERN CULTURAL CONDITION OF THE HYPER-INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD, OF OUR CONSUMER-DRIVEN SOCIETY WHERE MEDIA IS PART OF THE SPECTACLE OF EVERY DAY LIFE BUT INDEED WHERE ECONOMIES, POLITICS, PEOPLES HAVE TANGIBLY STARTED TO MOVE ACROSS BASES OF BOTH PLACES AND OF TIME. IN LIGHT OF THAT, CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE UNITED STATES AS A DISCREET ENTITY OR ISLAM INDEED AS A DISCREET ENTITY, OR ARE THESE CATEGORIES THAT THROUGH THEORIES SUCH AS CLASH OF CIVILIZATION, PUT OUT IN A VERY TACTICAL WAY BY SOMEONE VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE COLD WAR AT PRECISELY THE MOMENT THE COLD WAR IS ENDING, IS THAT KIND OF AN EFFORT TO CONSTRUCT A NEW CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS? DO CATEGORIES OF CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS TAKE SHAPE IN THIS NEW ERA AS A RESULT OF PRECISELY THESE SORTS OF MOVES? I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THE LONG, EXTENSIVE AND HYBRID HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES, VIS-A-VIS THE MIDDLE EAST, IS ONE THAT MUST BE CONSISTENTLY FLESHED OUT THROUGH A HISTORY OF POLICY, THROUGH A HISTORY OF INTERACTIONS THAT IS POLITICAL, THAT IS SOCIAL, THAT IS ECONOMIC AND THAT IS CULTURAL BUT ALWAYS CONTINGENT UPON PROBABLY THE TWO MAJOR FACTORS THAT MOST STRUCTURE THE POSTWORLD WAR II HISTORY OF THE MIDDLE EAST: OIL AND ISRAEL, AND I'M HOPING THAT PROFESSOR MAZRUI WILL DIRECT SOME OF HIS DISCUSSION ALONG THESE LINES. ON A FINAL NOTE-- TWO FINAL NOTES-- I'LL KEEP IT KIND OF SIMPLE. WHEN SAMUEL HUNTINGTON PICKS OUT THIS PHRASE, "CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS," HE DOES SO USING THE TERM THAT BERNARD LEWIS HAS FIRST POPULARIZED A FEW YEARS EARLIER IN AN ESSAY CALLED "THE ROOTS OF MUSLIM RAGE," AND THAT ESSAY BY LEWIS, A SCHOLAR OF ISLAM BUT A SCHOLAR OF A PARTICULAR SORT, A SCHOLAR SCHOOLED IN THE TEXTURAL TRADITIONS THAT CAME TO BE CALLED ORIENTALISM IN THE UNIVERSITIES OF EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA, OF A PARTICULAR BRAND OF TEXTURAL HUMANIST CULTURAL STUDY THAT IN THE POST-WAR ERA HAD BECOME DISPLACED WHICH MORE INSTRUMENTAL POLICY-ORIENTED DECISIONS ALIGNED WITH THE STATE. A CULTURAL EXPLANATION HAD KIND OF FOUND A MOMENT IN THE LATE-'80s AND THE CULTURAL EXPLANATION WAS PULLED INTO A KIND OF THEORY BY HUNTINGTON. BUT TO GO BACK TO ORIENTALISM AND EDWARD SAID'S FAMOUS CRITIQUE, HE POINTS THIS OUT: IT'S ABOUT A FUNDAMENTAL KIND OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EAST AND WEST AND OF THE SYSTEMIC NECESSITY FOR MAINTAINING THOSE SORTS OF SEPARATIONS THAT BEGIN, AS I POINT OUT TO YOU, TO BEGIN TO KIND OF COME APART IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 20th CENTURY AS EMPIRE COMES TO AN END. SO WE'RE FINDING IN A CERTAIN WAY THESE CATEGORIES BECOMING REGROUPED... AND TO ARGUE WHETHER THE U.S. IS AN EMPIRE, I WOULD ARGUE WE ARE NOT. EMPIRES PAID MUCH MORE ATTENTION TO THEIR PERIPHERY, AND IN NOW IN-FAMOUS "SATANIC VERSES" BY SALMAN RUSHDIE, ONE OF THE CHARACTERS IS GOING THROUGH A LITANY OF THINGS HE DISLIKES ABOUT THE BRITISH. HE'S A SOUTH-ASIAN AND HAS SPENT MUCH OF HIS LIFE UNDER THE BRITISH RAJ, BEING A COLONIAL SUBJECT. "ONE OF THE THINGS I HATE ABOUT THE BRITISH IS THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR OWN HISTORY BECAUSE IT HAPPENED ELSEWHERE." NOW, IF WE WERE AN EMPIRE, WE MIGHT HAVE THAT BUREAUCRACY, THAT THIN COLONIAL ADMINISTRATION LAYER THAT WENT ELSEWHERE. WE DON'T REALLY HAVE THAT. WHAT WE DO HAVE IS A POST-MODERN CONTINUITY, A BRIEF CONNECTION THAT MAINLY REMAINS UNUSED. IF THOSE CONNECTIONS WERE TO BE CULTIVATED, PERHAPS A DIFFERENT PICTURE OF AMERICAN CULTURE IN SOCIETY WOULD EMERGE. THANK YOU. (Applause) >> OKAY. ANOTHER REASON I PUT MYSELF IN THE LAST SLOT AS DISCUSSANT SO THAT I COULD NOT DISCUSS IF IN FACT IT LOOKS LIKE WE ARE RUNNING TOO LONG, AND I THINK IT'S REALLY MORE IMPORTANT TO GO TO QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE AT THIS POINT THAN TO HEAR ME SAY MORE. YOU DON'T MIND, I'M SURE. NO PROBLEM, PROFESSOR GREBINGER, YES. SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO THEN IS ASK Dr. MAZRUI AND Dr. RAY TO COME TO THE TABLE SO THAT THEY'LL BE THERE FOR YOU TO SEE. I AM GOING TO TAKE THIS MICROPHONE AROUND AND I WANT TO MENTION THAT OUR INTERPRETERS ALSO HAVE A MIC, SO THEY CAN VOICE FOR DEAF STUDENTS WHO MAY HAVE QUESTIONS. WE'RE LOOKING THEN FOR QUESTIONS. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO ACCOMPANY YOU? WE'RE LOOKING FOR QUESTION FROM THE AUDIENCE-- (Mic feedback) WE'RE LOOKING FOR QUESTIONS, AND I DON'T MIND RUNNING TO THE TOP AND RUNNING TO THE BOTTOM AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. WHO WOULD LIKE TO-BEGIN? OH, THIS IS A MERCY. (Chuckling) >> THANK YOU. I JUST WONDER WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT THE VALUES CONVERGED IN ORDER FOR THE PEOPLE TO GET TOGETHER AND TO LIVE PEACEFULLY TOGETHER? IN OTHER WORDS, I'M SAYING THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO-THE VALUES DON'T NEED TO CONVERGE IN ORDER FOR THE WEST AND THE EAST OR THE MUSLIMS AND THE WEST TO LIVE HAPPILY TOGETHER. >> YOU WANT US TO ANSWER ONE AT A TIME? OKAY. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO CONVERGE. THE HISTORY OF THE CENTURY WHICH I ENUMERATED FOR YOU BEARS YOU OUT BECAUSE WHEN THE VALUES WERE SIMILAR, IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, AMERICANS HATED MUSLIMS AND PROBABLY VICE VERSA. SO MANY OF THEIR MORES WERE SIMILARLY ORIENTED TOWARD FAMILY, PATRIARCHY, NOTIONS OF HOW TO TREAT WOMEN, ET CETERA, AND BRIEFLY TOWARD OUTLAWS. SO THE VALUES WERE SIMILAR; THEY HATED EACH OTHER. SO THAT BEARS YOUR POINT THEN. BUT THE OTHER FACT, IN MY FOURTH SCENARIO, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? IN MY FOURTH SCENARIO, IT REQUIRES THE DEEPER DEMOCRATIZATION OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE MODERNIZATION AND LIBERALIZATION OF ISLAM. THE OUTCOME OF THAT NEED NOT BE ACROSS-THE-BOARD VALUE CONVERGENCE. IT MAY JUST MEAN CERTAIN VALUES HAVE TO BE COMPATIBLE RATHER THAN CONVERGE; THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME; THEY JUST HAVE TO BE COMPATIBLE TO FORM THE BASIS OF PEACE BETWEEN THOSE TWO CIVILIZATIONS. >> I HAVE A BIT OF A RESPONSE. INDIA IS A COMMON EXAMPLE REGARDING CULTURAL PLURALISM, AND POLITICAL THEORISTS HAVE BEEN WORKING RATHER HARD AT KEEPING CULTURES FROM BECOMING EXTREMIST REALLY IN AN EFFORT TO PRODUCE A KIND OF IDENTITY, YOU KNOW, NEEDED TO PARTICIPATE IN A DEMOCRACY, AND RECENTLY THE ARGUMENT HAS BEEN MADE AGAINST NORMATIVE CRITERIA, SO THAT LITERALLY PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO EVEN EXPLAIN THEMSELVES TO OTHERS, THAT WITHIN THE GROUP ITSELF, THE RATIONALE THAT MAY EMERGE, THE MOMENT THAT IT ENTERS INTO A KIND OF NORMATIVE DISCOURSE, IT TRANSFORMS THE GROUP ITSELF. SO ASKING FOR A RADICAL TOLERANCE, REALLY, WHICH I DON'T SEE AS BEING PART OF THE ARGUMENT THE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHERS PUT OUT, I DON'T SEE IT HAPPENS BUT IT'S A WAY OF A DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAT MIGHT BE WORTHWHILE. >> I'M JUST WONDERING IF YOU BELIEVE THAT AL QAEDA HAD JUSTIFICATION FOR 9/11, BASED ON THE FORMER ATROCITIES FROM THE WEST. BASED ON WHAT THE WEST HAS DONE-- YOU SAID MULTIPLE TIMES THE WEST HAS KILLED THE ISLAMIC WORLD, SO ARE THEY JUSTIFIED AT LEAST IN PART IN WHAT THEY DID TO US BACK? >> THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THE RAGE THAT LEWIS WAS REFERRING TO, THE MUSLIM RAGE IN THE WORLD; IT'S USUALLY WORSE THAN EVER SINCE THE RESPONSE TO SEPTEMBER 11th. WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THE WAR ON TERROR IS KILLING MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN THE TERROR AND IS PRODUCING MORE TERRORISTS IN THE PROCESS. AND THEN FOR MANY MUSLIMS, HOW DO YOU CONTROL-- I DISAGREE WITH MY COLLEAGUE HERE THIS IS NOT AN EMPIRE, BUT IT IS AN EMPIRE OF A DIFFERENT KIND. IT'S AN EMPIRE OF CONTROL; IT'S NOT AN EMPIRE OF OCCUPATION. SO IF YOU ARE IN IRAQ, QUICKLY MAKE IT APPEAR AS IF YOU ARE NO LONGER OCCUPYING. CREATE THE GOVERNMENT AND PRETEND YOUR 150,000 TROOPS THERE ARE NOT PART OF THE POLITICAL SCENE. IT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF EMPIRE THAT IS UNICENTRIC, CONTROLLING, SOVEREIGN IMPUNITY RATHER THAN SOVEREIGN ACCOUNTABILITY AND WITH NO SPECIAL SENSE OF REMORSE FOR WHAT IT DOES. HOW DO WE CONTROL IT? I ONLY MENTIONED ONE FORM IN MY LECTURE, BUT THIS QUESTION ENABLES ME TO MENTION THE OTHER. HOW DO YOU TAME THE UNITED STATES? I FOCUS ON RELYING ON THE DEMOCRATIC FORCES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, BUT ELSEWHERE, I HAVE SAID THERE ARE THREE OTHER WAYS OF TAMING THE UNITED STATES. ONE IS MAKING AMERICANS PAY WITH THEIR-- PAY WHEN THEY ABUSE POWER. SOMETIMES YOU MAKE AMERICANS PAY BY JUST ECONOMIC MOVES LIKE THE OIL BOYCOTT OF THE 1970s, BY THE OIL POWERS. SOMETIMES YOU MAKE AMERICANS PAY BY INSURGENCY, LIKE IN IRAQ WHICH IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. THE AMERICANS ARE PAYING FOR THEIR DECISION TO INVADE. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A WALKOVER. IT WAS A WALKOVER IN CONVENTIONAL WARFARE. IT ISN'T A WALKOVER IN TERMS OF CONTINUING CONFLICT. AND THEN THE THIRD IS THE UGLY PART OF TERRORISM: MAKE AMERICANS PAY. WE CAN'T FIGHT THEM WITH PLANES; THEY HAVE MORE OF THEM. WE CAN'T FIGHT THEM WITH ROCKETS; THEY HAVE MORE OF THEM. WE CAN'T FIGHT THEM WITH TANKS; WE DON'T HAVE ANY. WE CAN FIGHT THEM WITH OUR BODIES AND WITH WEAPONS TIED TO OUR BODIES. THERE'S NOTHING IN SUICIDE BOMBING THAT MAKES IT MORE IMMORAL THAN HOMICIDE BOMBING. BELIEVE YOU ME, THE FACT THAT YOU KILL PEOPLE WITHOUT KILLING YOURSELF, AS AMERICANS AND ISRAELIS ARE DOING ALL THE TIME, IS NOT MORALLY SUPERIOR TO KILLING PEOPLE WHILE YOU KILL YOURSELF. BOTH ARE FORMS OF VIOLENCE. >> OKAY. >> A QUESTION OVER HERE. >> I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS. THE FIRST QUESTION IS WHEN YOU REFER TO OCCUPATION, IT ASTONISHES ME YOU REFER TO PALESTINE WHEN PALESTINE HAS NEVER EXISTED AS AN INDEPENDENT STATE. OTHER THAN THAT, IT ALSO SURPRISES ME THAT YOU BLAME ONLY THE WEST FOR OCCUPATION AND YOU DON'T BLAME THE MUSLIM WORLD WHEN YOU CAN EQUATE THE OCCUPATION OF WHAT YOU CALL PALESTINE AND THE OCCUPATION OF KURDISTAN. MY SECOND PART OF THE QUESTION IS YOU BLAME THE WEST FOR KILLING MANY, MANY, MANY MUSLIMS AND YOU FORGET TO MENTION THE INSURGENCY IN IRAQ IS NOT ONLY AGAINST THE UNITED STATES; IT'S ALSO AMONGST THEMSELVES. FORGET TO MENTION THE MURDER OF KURDISH PEOPLE AND THE POLITICAL MOVEMENT AGAINST THEIR INDEPENDENCE, AND FINALLY I WAS SURPRISED THAT YOU WERE FROM MOMBASA. ACTUALLY, I DIDN'T DO MY RESEARCH BEFORE I CAME HERE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION THAT IN MOMBASA, ISRAELIS WERE KILLED JUST BECAUSE THEY HAD A BLUE PASSPORT, WHERE THEY WERE NOT CONQUERING MOMBASA, JUST WENT THERE FOR A NICE SUMMER TRIP, AND THAT MURDER IS A SHOW OF CLASHING OF CIVILIZATION. >> OKAY. ON THE FIRST ONE, VIOLENCE WITHIN THE MUSLIM WORLD, THIS IS A SITUATION OF INTRACIVILIZATIONAL VIOLENCE. IT IS TRUE CASES OF MUSLIMS FIGHTING EACH OTHER, MUSLIMS AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER. DO YOU KNOW WHICH CIVILIZATION HAD THE MOST MASSIVE INTRACIVILIZATIONAL WAR? THE WEST. WE CALL THEM WORLD WARS. WORLD WAR I AND WORLD WAR II STARTED AS EUROPEAN CIVIL WARS, EUROPEAN CIVIL WARS THAT DRAGGED THE REST OF US INTO THEM AND KILLED MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. SO TALK OF INTRACIVILIZATIONAL WAR, THERE'S NOTHING TO MATCH WHAT WHITE PEOPLE HAVE DONE TO EACH OTHER WITHIN MY LIFETIME. I WAS POLITICALLY CONSCIOUS DURING WORLD WAR II IN MOMBASA WHEN THIS KINDS OF INTEREST OF CIVILIZATION WAS HAPPENING. SECOND, I THINK THE EUROPEAN POWERS MADE A MISTAKE; THEY SHOULD HAVE CREATED A SEPARATE KURDISTAN AT THE COLLAPSE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE. I'M ON THE SIDE OF THE KURDS, OF THE PEOPLE SINNED AGAINST, NOT JUST BY THEIR PRESENT RULERS BUT BECAUSE THE WORLD SYSTEM AT THE END OF WORLD WAR I AND THE COLLAPSE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, WHEN THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE A SEPARATE KURDISTAN, THEY DID NOT. AT THE END OF WORLD WAR II, WHEN THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE A JEWISH STATE, THEY DID. WHEN JEWISH FRIENDS AND ZIONISTS TELL ME, "LOOK, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THE JEWS WHO DIDN'T HAVE A STATE OF THEIR OWN?" YOU KNOW, THE EXAMPLE I VERY OFTEN GIVE IS THE KURDS. WHO TOLD YOU JEWS ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T HAVE A STATE OF THEIR OWN BEFORE 1948? THE KURDS DIDN'T HAVE A STATE. THEY ARE SCATTERED IN FOUR DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. THERE ARE LARGE GROUPS OF AFRICANS... THERE WAS NOTHING UNIQUE ABOUT JEWS NOT HAVING A STATE OF THEIR OWN. BUT MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE IS KURDISTAN, WHICH COULD EASILY HAVE BEEN GIVEN A STATE OF THEIR OWN. BUT IT'S A SIN OF HISTORY RATHER THAN A SIN OF THE PRESENT SITUATION. I HOPE AN OPPORTUNITY OCCURS WHICH CAN RECTIFY THAT SITUATION. SO I REGRET MUSLIMS KILL EACH OTHER. I'M AFRAID THE SHORT PERIOD OF AMERICAN KILLING OF MUSLIMS KILLED MANY MORE MUSLIMS THAN THEY DO OVER TEN YEARS, JUST SHOWS AMERICAN POWER BUTCHERY IS ENOUGH TO OUTPACE MUSLIM INTERNAL MASOCHISM. >> IS THERE A QUESTION UP THERE? >> YEP. >> I WAS HOPING I WOULD GET A WORKOUT. CAN WE GET YOU TO COME OVER HERE? >> YOU SAID YOU DON'T HAVE ANY-- THE WESTERN WORLD HAS KILLED MORE MUSLIMS OVER THE PAST TEN YEARS THAN MUSLIMS HAVE KILLED THEMSELVES, BUT HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THE MASS GENOCIDE IN THE SUDAN, WHICH IS ESTIMATED NOW TO BE 350,000 PEOPLE? >> THE SECOND PART, CAN YOU REPEAT? >> THEY'RE ESTIMATING-- THE U.N. HAS ESTIMATES THAT IN THE SUDAN, 350,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BASICALLY BY A MUSLIM FACTION, I GUESS YOU'D CALL IT? I GUESS MY QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY-- HOW ARE YOU-- YOU'RE COMING UPON YOUR IDEAS SAYING IT'S BETTER THAT THE MUSLIMS KILL THEMSELVES OR IT'S BETTER THAN THE WESTERN WORLD HAS KILLED A BUNCH OF MUSLIMS BUT IT'S NOT REALLY A MUSLIM PROBLEM? >> NO, I'M SORRY IF I CAME ACROSS AS SAYING IT'S OKAY FOR MUSLIMS TO KILL EACH OTHER. IT'S NOT OKAY FOR MUSLIMS TO KILL EACH OTHER. AND IT'S NOT OKAY FOR MUSLIMS IN SUDAN OR ONE PART OF SUDAN KILLING MUSLIMS IN ANOTHER PART OF THE SUDAN OR IN THE CASE OF MUSLIMS IN POWER IN SUDAN KILLING MUSLIMS IN THE SOUTH. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT THE SCALE OF KILLING BY THE WEST IN THE LAST TEN YEARS IS MUCH GREATER, EVEN WHEN IRAQ WAS NOT UNDER DIRECT OCCUPATION. THE SANCTIONS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND UNITED KINGDOM IMPOSED UPON IRAQ BY MOST ESTIMATED RESULTED IN THE DEATH OF AN ADDITIONAL 300,000 IF NOT HALF A MILLION ADDITIONAL IRAQIS. WHEN THE COUNTRY WAS NOT EVEN AT WAR BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES AND GREAT BRITAIN FORCED THE UNITED NATIONS TO ENFORCE A REGIME OF SANCTIONS WHICH WAS DEVASTATING FOR THE CHILDREN AND LEFT SADDAM STILL IN POWER. WHEN COMPARING SCALES OF KILLING, NOTHING THAT HAPPENS BETWEEN TRIBES IN AFRICA COMPARES WITH THE SCALE THAT IS DONE BY AMERICAN MIGHT WHEN IT IS LET LOOSE. >> HOW CAN YOU ARGUE THAT IT IS JUST THE UNITED STATES WHO IMPOSED ALL THESE SANCTIONS? IT WAS A WORLD BODY, THE U.N.-(Inaudible) -- SECONDLY-- (Inaudible) >> THE SECOND POSITION IS NOT TRUE. STUDY AFTER STUDY OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF SANCTIONS WITH REGARD TO INFANT MORTALITY, DEATH OF MOTHERS, INADEQUATE MEDICATIONS, THOSE HAVE BEEN REPEATED. IF YOU JUST SAY THERE WERE VIOLATIONS WITH REGARD TO WHO SELLS OIL, THAT'S PROBABLY TRUE. BUT WITH REGARD TO WHETHER THE SANCTIONS RESULTED IN THE DEPRIVATION OF MAJOR COMMODITIES VITAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE, THAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BY STUDY AFTER STUDY. THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES USED THE UNITED NATIONS FROM TIME TO TIME DOESN'T MAKE IT LESS OF AN AMERICAN INITIATIVE. MOST STUDIES OF THE U.N. WITH REGARDS TO THE SANCTIONS SAID EVERYBODY ELSE WAS READY TO CEASE THE SANCTION BUT FOR THOSE TWO ANGLO-SAXON POWERS-- THE UNITED STATES AND GREAT BRITAIN-- AND EITHER OF THEM COULD STOP LIFTING THE SANCTIONS BECAUSE IT NEEDED ONE VETO TO STOP A CHANGE, AND THE DECISION TO MAINTAIN THE SANCTION WAS EXCLUSIVELY BRITAIN AND THE UNITED STATES. IN REALITY, THE UNITED STATES. BRITAIN VERY OFTEN IS JUST A POODLE TO THE UNITED STATES. >> OKAY. WE HAVE A QUESTION HERE. >> I WOULD JUST LIKE TO COMMENT ON THE ROLE OF THE FINANCIAL OLIGARCHY, THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND AND WORLD BANK-- >> WHERE ARE YOU-- >> UP HERE, SIR. --OLIGARCHY, THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND AND THE WORLD BANK IN THE REAL CAUSES OF DEVASTATION AND THE REAL CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS? >> WELL, AS YOU KNOW, THERE ARE REALLY THE BANKERS, REALLY SUPPOSED TO DEAL WITH DEVASTATED EUROPE WHEN THEY WERE CREATED AND LATER ON BECAME AN INSTRUMENT FOR DEALING WITH A DEVASTATED SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE. THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES IN POLICIES, ESPECIALLY WITHIN THE LAST SIX YEARS OR SO, WHICH GIVES US HOPE AFTER THE WORLD BANK, ESPECIALLY, AND MAJOR COMMITMENTS RIGHT NOW TOWARD AFRICA THAT ARE FAR GREATER THAN THEY WERE PREPARED TO DO BEFORE, AND THE WORLD BANK PRESIDENT WHO IS STEPPING DOWN SHORTLY HAD MORE OF A DETERMINATION TO DEAL WITH POVERTY REDUCTION THAN ALMOST ANY OF HIS PREDECESSORS. I SERVED ON WHAT WAS CALLED THE WORLD BANK COUNCIL OF AFRICAN ADVISORS WHICH ADVISED THE WORLD BANK FOR ABOUT A DECADE, HOW INFLUENCE ON THEIR DECISION WAS VERY SLOW BUT IT DID EVENTUALLY LEAD TO THEIR TAKING ISSUES LIKE GOVERNANCE, CULTURAL DIFFERENCES MORE SERIOUSLY THAN THEY DID BEFORE. UNFORTUNATELY, THE WORLD BANK IS STILL A SYSTEM WHERE THE PRESIDENT HAS TO BE AN AMERICAN. IF YOU GET A GOOD AMERICAN, THAT'S VERY GOOD. IF YOU GET A BAD ONE, GOD HELP THE REST OF THE WORLD. PRESIDENT BUSH HAS JUST NOMINATED ONE OF THE HAWKS OF THE IRAQI WAR AND THERE'S NO DOUBT WE'RE HEADING FOR TROUBLE UNDER HIS PRESIDENCY OF THE WORLD BANK. IN GENERAL, THE WHOLE SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE DEMOCRATIZED. WHY SHOULD IT BE THAT FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS ALL PRESIDENTS OF THE WORLD BANK HAVE BEEN AMERICANS? IT'S TIME WE SHIFTED SO THAT OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD CAN LEAD THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND, APART FROM EUROPEANS-- THIS USED TO BE RESERVED FOR EUROPEANS-OR LEAD THE WORLD BANK APART FROM AMERICANS? THE TWO INSTITUTIONS ARE SYMBOLIC OF A DISTORTED GLOBAL SYSTEM OF POWER. >> OKAY. WE HAVE ONE QUESTION HERE AND THEN I'M GOING TO LOOK FOR ONE MORE. >> GOOD EVENING. I'M WONDERING, DOCTOR, DO YOU SEE THAT THERE WILL BE A DIVERGENCE OF ATTITUDES TOWARD WOMEN IN EITHER THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION OR MUSLIM CIVILIZATION SO THAT THERE WILL BE MORE OPPORTUNITY AND EQUALITY? >> I'M FAIRLY OPTIMISTIC, BUT IT CAN'T HAPPEN UNLESS WOMEN THEMSELVES ARE MORE AND MORE DETERMINED IN RECLAIMING THEIR RIGHTS. IN GENERAL, THE WOMEN OF THE WESTERN WORLD HAVE BEEN MORE ACTIVE DURING MY LIFETIME TO RECLAIM THEIR RIGHTS THAN THE WOMEN IN THE MUSLIM WORLD, SO WHEN A MUSLIM WOMAN LIKE AMINA WADUD, ALTHOUGH SHE'S BORN A WESTERNER, IS MUSLIM, BRING MAJOR CONVICTION, IS A WOMAN, OUT TO CREATE A MAJOR CHANGE, JUST WHO LEADS THE PRAYERS, THE JUM'AH PRAYERS? IT'S AN ISSUE OF RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP. CAN RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP BE IN THE HANDS OF A WOMAN? WELL, WE KNOW THAT AISHA, ONE OF THE WIVES OF THE PROPHET, HAD A LEADERSHIP ROLE, INCLUDING ON A BATTLEFIELD. WE KNOW THE CONSORT OF THE SECOND CALIPH WAS INFLUENTIAL ON THE CALIPH DURING THAT DAY, BUT ISLAM WENT MUCH MORE SEXIST LATER ON, AND IT DOES NEED PEOPLE LIKE AMINA WADUD TO ENFORCE THE PACE OF CHANGE. SO WHEN YOU ASK IF THERE WILL BE IMPROVEMENT OF MUSLIM WOMEN OR WOMEN IN THE WESTERN WORLD, I SAY YES. ON THE ISSUE OF WOMEN OBTAINING ULTIMATE POLITICAL POWER, I INDICATED THE MUSLIM WORLD IS ALREADY AHEAD OF MAJOR WESTERN COUNTRIES BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD WOMEN PRESIDENTS, WOMEN PRIME MINISTERS. BUT IN OTHER AREAS OF ENDEAVOR, THERE'S A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE, BOTH IN THE WEST AND THE MUSLIM WORLD. >> TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THE MUSLIM WORLD VIEW THE OUTSIDE WORLD, THE WESTERN WORLD FROM A RACIAL PERSPECTIVE, INCLUDING ISRAEL? DO THEY SOMEHOW ASSOCIATE AMERICAN VALUES OR THE WESTERN VALUES IN A RACIAL TERM? AS LIKE A WHITE VALUE, AN IMPERIALISTIC VALUE? >> IN RACIAL TERMS, DID YOU SAY? >> DO THEY VIEW THE VALUES OF THE WESTERN WORLD IN A RACIAL WAY? LIKE DO THEY ASSOCIATE RACE AND VALUES TO AMERICA? >> AT THE TIME WHEN THE VALUES OF THE MUSLIM WORLD AND THE AMERICAN WORLD CONVERGED, WERE SIMILAR, ONE AREA WHERE THEY DID NOT CONVERGE WAS ON RACE RELATIONS BECAUSE THAT WAS A PERIOD OF MAXIMUM AMERICAN RACISM IN MUCH OF THE FIRST HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY, WHEREAS IN THE MUSLIM WORLD, RACES WERE INTERMINGLING, INTERMARRYING, MOSQUES WERE INTERRACIAL, AND THE IDEA OF A HIGHLY SEGREGATED SOCIETY DIDN'T EXIST. SO ON BALANCE, THE RECORD OF THE MUSLIM WORLD ON THE RACE ISSUE IS BY FAR MUCH BETTER THAN THE RECORD OF THE WESTERN WORLD, PARTLY BECAUSE THE SYSTEM OF RACE IS LESS RIGID. EGYPT HAS HAD FOUR PRESIDENTS SINCE 1952-- NAGUIB, NASSER, ANWAR SADAT AND MUBARAK. TWO OF THEM HAD BLACK MOTHERS. THE PRIME MINISTER OF KUWAIT CURRENTLY HAS A BLACK MOTHER. THE MUSLIM-- THE MOST INFLUENTIAL AMBASSADOR IN THE UNITED STATES, A PRINCE FROM SAUDI ARABIA, HAS BEEN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES FOR TWO DECADES, HE HAS A BLACK MOTHER. THERE IS NO EQUIVALENT INTERRACIAL ASCENT TO ULTIMATE POWER IN THE HISTORY OF RELATIONS BETWEEN WHITE PEOPLE AND BLACK PEOPLE AS COMPARED BETWEEN AFRICAN PEOPLE AND ARAB PEOPLE. SO THOSE ARE JUST OFF-HAND EXAMPLES RIGHT NOW OF TOP PEOPLE WHO HAVE BLACK MOTHERS WHO IN THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE REGARDED AS JUST BLACK AND FOR MUCH OF THE PERIOD I EXAMINED WOULD NOT BE ELIGIBLE FOR ULTIMATE POWER. SO SIMPLY ON THE ISSUE OF RACE RELATIONS, THERE'S NO DOUBT THE RECORD OF ISLAM IS BETTER, BUT IT IS NOT PERFECT, AND IT NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED EVEN TODAY MUCH BETTER. >> OKAY. I WANT TO THANK-- I KNOW WE HAVE RUN OVERTIME AND I WANT TO THANK Dr. MAZRUI, Dr. RAY. I BELIEVE THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO WANT TO COME DOWN AND SPEAK TO YOU DOWN HERE. YOU'RE WELCOME TO COME DOWN. (Applause)