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Class Plan, October 7th, 2004 Herodotus Part II
Announcements
 Medea $10
 Orestia: Agamemnon and the Libation Bearers. justice, power, gender.
Summary of Last Class
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Book organization
o 1st 6 books end with the defeat of the Persians in 490 BC at the Battle of Marathon = 1st setback to their
imperial progress.
o last 3 books of = Xerxes ten years later to avenge Marathon and absorb Greece.
o key battles: Thermopole (Spartans), Salimis (Athenians, Thermistocles’ smarts and technology), and
Plataea (479 defeat of Xerxes underling manager, Xerxes retreats).
o Salmis called the most decisive battle in history. Ensured emergence of Western civilization as major
force.
History
o Croesus was king of Lydia (Turkey) and first to subject the Greeks on Asia minor
o Croesus was defeated by upstart Cyrus, first consolidator of the Persian empire (547 BC)
o Xerxes is Cyrus’ grandson, massive attack on Greece in 480 fails. WHY?
Herodotus is living and writing 300 years after Homer. “Father of History” and “Father of Lies.”
Helicarnassus – ships in Xerxes expedition, veterans, on the frontier, mixed blood, Athenian prosperity then
decline. Also famous for philosophy.
Exiled traveler looking for theoria – wisdom from travel and experience. (like philosophers)
writing on eve of Greek civil war (430) about Greek-Persian war (480) 50 years earlier: division vs. unification.
Wheel of fortune (tragic conception of the universe) (pride-recklessness-nemesis-inversion) (Croesus)
Caught between myth and logic – sketchy conclusions, effective habit of mind
Trojan war: history vs. myth. History makes Trojans more innocent and Greeks more savage.
Starts at the beginning – ancient stories of women stealing – not in media res like the epic.
Delphi
 city and archeological site in Greece
 site of the Delphic Sibyl (prophetess) dedicated to the god Apollo. Delphi was revered throughout the Greek
world as the site of the (omphalos) stone, the centre of the universe
 Delphoi is connected with delphus "womb" = archaic veneration of an Earth Goddess at the site
 Apollo killed the chthonic serpent Python, which lived beside a Spring which emitted vapors that caused the
oracle at Delphi to give prophesies. Took over.
 HUGELY influential all throughout Greece and Asia. Shaper of history
Cyrus
Cyrus as mythological figure
 Dreams of Cyrus’ father: pg 49-50 urine swamping Asia, vine that grows and spreads over Asia.
 Birth: Similarities with Moses and Oedipus
 Parentage: romulus and remus. Folk tale origin. PG 57 Cyno = bitch
 Childhood: Nature or Nurture? Cyrus as King of the Hill – proving his blood
Ethnography
Ethnography as Digressions:
 Why does it take him five books to get to his announced topic, the conflict between mainland Greeks and Persians
that begins in the Ionian revolt?
 Does this reflect authorial growth, from ethnographer to geographer to historian, or is it by design?
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Earlier material demonstrates why Persian Wars happened, the magnitude of the Persian empire, and why it was
so astounding that the Greeks won.
LOOK AT SCYTHIA VS. EGYPT.
HARD & SIMPLE: SCYTHIA pg 258 chpt 9-75
SOFT & COMPLEX: EGYPT Pg 109 chpt 35-48
Many rivers
Cure by superstitious interpretation 4.68 pg 261
Infrequent steam bath where they howl pg 264
No images, temples except to Ares
no admirable arts.
Sagage: drink blood in skulls; skin handkerchiefs
Gift economy
Little political structure – anarchy
Women as abundant natural resource
Invincible and unapproachable – rocky, no wood
Nomadic
Funeral monuments – living man on horse works
Xenophobic and nationalistic
One river
Divison of labor 35
Full of highly specialized physicians 2.84
Four baths a day, prize cleanliness pg 110 37
Complicated religion and ritual pg 110 37, 38
Literate pg 110 37
Geometry 2.109
Law 2.177
Market economy and taxes
Tend toward tyranny
Women as commodity
Seductive hospitality
Luxury
Hard People and Soft IMPT CONTRAST:
 Darius, one of the greatest Persian Kings, fails to capture Scythia
 incompetent, lunatic Cambyses (Persian) conquers Egypt (6th c)
 Xerxes re-conquers Egypt
 success of simple, unadmirable Scythians VS. the military failure of sophisticated, learned Egypt
 Croesus’ fall pg 32 beware of who you fight – if they have less than you do, you are taking the risk. Hard-soft
issue. Persians had no luxuries.
 Cyrus convinces people to revolt and gains power by this: Pg 59: hard to soft, work to luxury
 Persians 62-4 start hard and end soft (171)
 Last paragraph of book about hard and soft people
 Tragic Cycle link
o Invading hard people gets you nothing: sign of hubris
o Conquering soft people = their luxury contaminates you
How does this tie into the defeat of Greece and Persia?
 Greece as the synthesis of Egypt and Scythia
o Greece adapted Egyptian customs and learning
o But Greece is poor in comparison with wealth of Persia or Lydia – maintains hardiness of a primitive state
but wisdom of laws. See pg 448 7.102
o Greek civilization is not too softened – it can fight bravely.
o Greek victory = combination of intellectual and physical strength.
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Warning:
o Greeks are a lot like the Perians – both marked by hubris, restlessness, religion
o So Greeks might become like Persians – soft and restless
o Herodotus sees 5th century Greeks as morally bankrupt heirs of Persia
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Digression serves the larger historical argument that organizes, connects and controls the larger work.
Xerxes (Group Work)
What does Xerxes do wrong? Can we see it before the battle?
Debates on the Greek war pg 416-21
 Xerxes speech: pg 416, chpt 8 (a and c): ideological
o habit, glory, revenge, and empire
 Artabanus’ argument: pragmatic
o Greek skill, Koros pg 420, pg 434 problems of food and water
 The Dreams
o Pg 423 what are dreams? Secular or religious?
o A’s Problem: Do I reaffirm his hubris or does he really want foreign policy advice?
 Chooses religious view and hubris. This is the downfall.
 pg 439 doesn’t always follow religion, only when it suits him
 Why the turn to myth?
o Does his audience want theories of empire only? Is the power of his story in the logos or the mythos?
Whipping the river pg 429
 Did this happen? Why doesn’t Herodotus comment on the veracity of the tale? What does the tale do for his
portrait of Xerxes?
o moment of pride, like Achilleus here
 Why would Xerxes do this?
o Psychological – real politik—something/someone has to take the blame
Pg 433 Xerxes crying
 Happy seeing the Hellespont filled with ships and sad that life is short and full of suffering. All these men will
die. What about himself?
 Claims we wish death – remember Solon’s story?
pg 435 debate on risk
 Artabanus: the land and sea will stop you if nothing else. Excessive army.
 Xerxes – fear of risk = immobility; risk = profit
 pg 436 faulty logic – he’s got Greek troops and he’s not afraid?!
Attitude toward the Greeks
 pg 448 – doesn’t think Greeks will even fight. What doesn’t he get?
o Greece is more poor, wise, and lawful – pg 450 law as master
o Greece loves freedom
o Spartans will fight forever
Athenians and Spartans
SPARTANS
 Spartans: 448-450. Interesting that many of the good things we learn about Sparta, and about Spartan valour, we
learn from an enemy of Sparta, a fugitive—Demaratus. Juxtaposition of tyranny and law. Xerxes does not
understand the rule of law, only of tyranny.
 459—Spartans understand what freedom is, so will never bow to tyranny. Tyranny deeply bound up in the idea of
hubris.
 Spartans success at Thermpolye due to experience, strategy, and will pg 490; pg 488 Xerxes can’t understand
them
ATHENIANS
 Who are they? 26—back-handed compliment. They are both the wisest of a wise people, and gullible. Wise, but
in danger of not being so. Rational, but in danger of becoming superstitious.
 Athenians: 460-461. Why is Herodotus’ position unpopular? To praise Athens among anyone but Athenians
would be dangerous.
 Athens saves Greece because of its naval power and strategy. Themistocles, p. 464.
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What do embassies to Greek cities and colonies reveal?
o Italy: only if I get power out of it
o Corcyra: we’ll say yes and then never show up in case you lose and we have new masters
o Crete: you’ve screwed us too many times
What does happen? pg 464 petty disputes patched up, alliances are made
Conclusion
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Q: How did the Greeks defeat the Persians in 480? “5 million “vs. a couple hundred ships (25,000)
 A: Unity, Athens pg 461 – wisdom (strategy) and strength, love of freedom pg 459
 This explains his strange comment: pg 460 chpt 139 – his unpopular opinion that Athens saved the day.
Comment is unpopular because Athens has become oppressive 8.3 civil war worse than outside enemy
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Does Herodotus buy into the tragic cycle? Do the Greeks in Herodotus fall into the tragic cycle? Somehow he
thinks Greek culture is better at resisting nemesis and koros.
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What might slow or disrupt this cycle? (stories, democracy?)
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What are the main themes we’ve discussed?
o Culture is king;
o The bigger they are the farther they fall
o Hard people vs. soft people
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Athens like Persia at this time is in a state of flux. Herodotus participates in this by providing a critical capacity.
He might be too Greek to really learn from other cultures, but his inquiry does create a critical vantage point on
Greek society.
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Histories as a warning to Greek people: Herodotus sees that Athenians have become like Persians. Greeks are a
lot like Persians: both marked by hubris, restlessness. So Greeks may become like Persians – soft and restless.
Herodotus sees 5th century Greeks as morally bankrupt heirs of Persia. From consenting citizen to fearful subject..
The result of Athenian power? Thucydities: The Peloponnesian War.
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one of the most important “marvelous achievements” that is in danger of being forgotten are the achievement of
unification
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What do others take from Herodotus? Tragedy as a moment of overreaching – retribution and fall. Aristotle and
Sophocles.
Herodotus as Historian or Storyteller
 What are his sources?
o Artifacts pg7-8, 11 treasure
o Other people’s narratives – collector o f stories pg 3-5 stories of Helen
o “Persians put the responsibility…”; “the accounts”
o pg 5: “I prefer to rely on my own knowledge”
o myth (homer)
 How accurate is Herodotus in conveying these historical facts?
o Pg 438 Mares and hares
 So why do we care about him?
o Pg 457 earthquake – tries to use reason
o Pg 467-8 his method
 Is Herodotus a storyteller or a historian?
o Pg 45 Cyrus: which story does he tell
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o Dialogue as instrument: fact or fiction?
Is Herodotus religious or secular?
o Pg 35 snakes as omen (yes)
o Does it matter whether he believes what he reports in terms of the gods? (beliefs effect actions)
o Pg 116-117 comparative religion;
What are his principles of observation?
o Pg 109: top paragraph: Whatever is odd or funny. Not an ethnographic principle, more “believe it or not”
o Pg 108-109 Nile and Danube: Symmetry
o Earthquake: Cause-effect analysis
o Pg 64: “From personal knowledge” Personalization – funneling history through the self
o Acts as judge and filter: presenting then choosing his preference pg 4-5, 31; repressing other versions pg
41;
Causation: Divine vs. Human
o 8.109 “Let us refrain” to fetters. VS. 7.139 “Had the Athenians” to “drove off the king”
o 2nd passage: clear and logical. Celebration of the value of freedom.
thought experiments
o fable about the oldest race pg 93 – proto scientific method! (Greta)
Parallels with Homer
 Pg 421, chpt 12 Xerxes dream VS. Agamemnon’s dream
 Death of Leonidas at Tthermopylae and the struggle for his body 7.255 vs. struggle over Patroclus’ body
 Catalog of ships 5.97
 Artabanus’ warning about war against Greece 7.10 “lying a prey to dogs and birds somewhere in the land of he
Athenians”
 Focus on particularity provides the model for narrative
Divergences with Homer
 Focus: distant vs. recent past
 Purpose: values vs. cause-effect analysis
 gods are not clear cut causal agents. You see effects, not gods themselves.
o Belief in gods has a larger role in the narrative than gods themselves: ie: Croesus and his error.
o 7.139 Athenians ignore the oracle! With positive consequences!
o Homer: People are often defeated by gods; never in Herodotus – people fall because of their own greed.
o Herodotus: pg 486 “it was not a god who threatened Greece”