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Aristotle (and some Thucydides) 16 July 2008 The Melian Debate • We both alike know that into the discussion of human affairs the question of justice only enters where there is equal power to enforce it, and that the powerful exact what they can, and the weak grant what they must. (5.89) The Melian Debate • Athens: Justice is only possible among equals (5.89) • Melos: justice is the “common protection” of all (5.90) • Athens: we are content to take the risk (5.91) The Melian debate • Athens: It’s in the interest of the weak to yield to the strong (5.91) • Melos: it’s not in our interest to be slaves – we could remain neutral (5.92) • Athens: the other option is death; anyway, neutrality won’t serve our interests (5.93, 5.95) The Melian Debate • Melos: Athenian policy will create more enemies among neutrals (5.98) • Athens: our cost-benefit calculations suggest that is the less important risk (5.99) The Melian Debate • Melos: it would be dishonorable of us not to try to resist, especially since your empire seems so risky, and since our allies or the gods may find it in the interest to help us (5.100, 5.102, 5.104, 5.106, 5.108, 5.110) • Athens: hope is not a plan, and the almost certain outcome of resistance is death; anyway, everyone else (including the gods) would do as we do (5.101, 5.103, 5.105, 5.107, 5.109, 5.111) The Outcome • In the end, the Melians prefer to defend themselves and attempt to preserve their liberty, and after some initially successful resistance, are ultimately crushed. • Did the Melians do the right thing? The Melian Debate • What does the Melian debate show? – The corruption of the Athenians by war – The truth of the Athenian thesis – The untenability of the Athenian thesis The Sicilian Disaster Is “realism” realistic? • Does justice matter in international relations? – Crude realist (the Athenian envoys at Melos): no, it doesn’t matter – Enlightened realist (Diodotus): the pursuit of interest depends on not alienating allies and not making enemies needlessly – Non- “realist”: there are limits to the pursuit of mere interest Thucydides • Can we say anything about Thucydides’ own position? – There are limits to justice in war: interest takes priority – There are also limits to the pursuit of power dissociated from justice – Justice is fragile: war corrupts peoples and individuals, and war is inevitable Thucydides as Tragedy Thucydides as Tragedy • The world is not arranged in a way that would allow justice to triumph, but neither is it arranged in a way that would allow the complete pursuit of interest Aristotle Nature: what is the “natural” in Aristotle? • The natural is… – What is not made by human beings – What happens normally or for the most part – What is complete • The not-natural is… – What is made by human beings – What happens only occasionally or by accident; what is impossible – What is incomplete or overgrown, due to some failure of development