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AEM Performance Electronics Forum
UNIVERSAL EMS => EMS-4 Universal Standalone => Topic started by: splice on February 27,
2012, 09:34:57 PM
Title: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on February 27, 2012, 09:34:57 PM
hello i could do with some help on my build.
i have a toyota 4age 20v turbo and an aem ems 4 am using stock distributor and
2 coil packs
from the toyota 3 rzfe for wasted spark i got the engine started and revs up to
3k rpm but then
gets an ignition cut . the distributor has 24 teeth crank and 1 cam am stuck
there any help would
be appreciated
please take a look at my cal.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on February 28, 2012, 11:42:50 AM
You're running an insane amount of dwell but your dwell max is limited to a half a
tooth. I think a more realistic dwell max would be 3-4 teeth.
Where'd you get your dwell settings from? I can't imagine that those coil packs
would need more than 2-3ms of dwell.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on March 05, 2012, 01:27:30 PM
hello i change the previous settings on the map and still i couldn't rev pass 3k
rpm i also
reconfigure my map to ran a single coil with the dizzy and still i couldn't rev pass
3k rpm.
just out of curiosity do i have to ground the shield from the 2 signal cables close
to the dizzy?
Am posting the 2 maps the tuner made 1 with wasted spark and 1 with single
coil.
plz take a look at my map am hope someone can help.
thanks
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 05, 2012, 01:29:46 PM
Yes, the shield should be drained to ground. Ground only the ECU end of the
shield.
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Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on March 05, 2012, 03:44:00 PM
NS am using the aem 96" harness with relay kit isn't that grounded on the ecu
side already?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 05, 2012, 04:25:50 PM
Sorry, I misread your post. No, do not ground the shield at the distributor. Yes,
the -96 harness already has the shield grounded at the ECU end.
Please post some logs showing the problem. Are you getting timing or sync
errors?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: rbs14ryl on March 06, 2012, 02:27:10 AM
I am helping splice with this car. The problem appears to be with the S Sync
tooth. During smooth operation this number remains at 24 as we rev up to the
3000 ~4000 rpm range this value becomes erratic and bounces around at
different values.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 06, 2012, 01:02:28 PM
Probably a noise issue. Are you doing any kind of filtering on the cam/crank
signals?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: rbs14ryl on March 06, 2012, 02:55:15 PM
No external filtering exists on the cam/crank connections other than the
shielding inherent in the aems harness. I've read about the 5k resistor wired into
the signal wires. Can you confirm the method in which the resistor should be
wired in? Are they to be wired in parallel to each signal wire and ground?
Any other noise filter recommendations would be appreciated.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 06, 2012, 03:06:03 PM
Eliminating noise can be a bit of a process. First, start with pull down resistors.
All you're doing with a pull down resistor is allowing sensor ground to have some
influence over the signal which reduces the amplitude of the signal as well as
noise. Start with a higher resistance (weaker pull down) and go to a lower
resistance (stronger pull down) until the problem is alleviated. I'd start with
10kOhm and then go to 5k, 2.2k, and 1k.
If you still have noise issues at lower resistances then you may consider using a
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low pass filter. Technically this is a parallel capacitor with a series resistor. The
sensor's own resistance is the series resistor so all that's needed is a capacitor
that ties the signal circuit to sensor ground. Start with a low capacitance like
.001uF and work your way up (.01uF, .1uF, etc).
The easiest way to do all of this is right at the sensor connector.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on March 09, 2012, 09:41:53 AM
hello NS i notice aem has pnp ECU for the toyota sc300 and 3sgte are the
circuit configuration that much
different as to the EMS4? Reason i ask is i examine the stock dizzy for both of
these cars and internally they're
the same as the 4age 20v.
thanks for a response.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 09, 2012, 11:29:44 AM
Yes, they're different. Plug-and-play EMS's have obviously been configured to
work on the application they're specified for. The EMS-4 is a universal product
so it needs to be configurable for any number of applications therefore it has
minimal filtering on the cam/crank inputs.
The filtering that might be needed actually has little to do with the internals of
the distributor. It's outside factors that cause noise. For instance, specifically
on the NA 2JZ cars you mentioned, the factory does not use shielded wire for
the cam/crank signals and to make matters even worse, all six spark plug wires
run directly over the cam/crank signal wires. This makes for an extremely noisy
signal by time it gets to the EMS so filtering is required to eliminate this noise. I
absolutely would not assume that what works for one application will work for
another just because they're similar. Treat each individual application differently
because they are different.
You should start by looking for external noise inducers. For example, are the
cam/crank signal wires being routed any where near the spark plug wires? If so,
re-route them. How are your wiring conventions? Have you isolated noisy items
(electric fan, fuel pump, etc) away from the cam/crank signal wires? Also, are
you using shielded wire (I know you are but it always needs to be asked).
I'd start with that pull down resistors that I mentioned and see where that gets
you.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: TitaniumThirteen on March 09, 2012, 01:24:42 PM
Have you tried adjusting Sync Ignore Above RPM? Say if you can't rev past 3000
RPM exactly, Try something like 2900.
I ran EMS-4s on both 3S-GE Beams and 1NZ-FE engine, even though they share
the same crank-cam pattern, the 3S-GE need to have this value adjusted to
allow it to rev past 5000 RPM. It was very much like an ignition cut but there
were no timing errors. I don't even know why but it worked :-P
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Also, how did you wire the harness to the distributor?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: rbs14ryl on March 09, 2012, 01:42:04 PM
I thought about changing the ignore above rpm, but was uncertain if ignoring
the sync tooth could potentially hurt the engine. Thus far no timing errors have
been noted while the car is misfiring and it does sound similar to an ignition cut.
I was hoping we could solve the problem first before ignoring it. Good to know
that you have had success with this method.
thanks !
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 09, 2012, 02:07:43 PM
I would NOT use Sync Ignore for this type of issue - ever. It was an option
created to work around problems that came from a specific application years
ago and the firmware has since been enhanced to fix any and all problems
associated with the particular app. In fact, you can probably expect future
firmware version to no longer have the Sync Ignore option available. It really
should not be used at all in almost any instance.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: TitaniumThirteen on March 27, 2012, 11:09:39 AM
Funny I have just witnessed the same problem in person with a friend's car
yesterday. It's an AE86 with 4A-GE 20V reverse mounted. I recalled answering
to this thread, discuss the issue with him and we decided to give a try. We had
2 EMS-4s and a 1040 box on hand. After the install and first startup it won't
even go past 2000RPM. We re-route the dizzy wires away from the main loom,
changed another dizzy and also tried adding 2.2 k resistors on the wire. After a
couple hours we were able to rev it up to ~3k at most. Both EMS give same
result. I have also notice an erratic on the crank teeth count value during the
cut.
We then splice the 1040 into the same harness, load the cal, start it up and the
problem is simply gone...
So far no solution has been found :|
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 27, 2012, 11:51:22 AM
Was the resistor added in series (in-line) or in parallel pulled down to sensor
ground?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 27, 2012, 12:08:53 PM
Also, the 1040 box has a very strong pull down on the cam and crank inputs.
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Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: TitaniumThirteen on March 27, 2012, 01:31:56 PM
It was pulled to its own ground, which also connects to the sensor ground and
not the main. This is done only to the crank sensor though. Maybe it's noise on
the cam signal causing extra sync? Because i notice an error only with the crank
teeth count but there were no timing errors even if i keep on letting it cut.
When it's normal it will count 23 teeth per cycle, when the cut occur the value
is entirely random.
Can i ask at what voltage level of noise will be able to trigger the signal
conditioner circuit?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 27, 2012, 03:51:16 PM
Honestly it depends on the application. More specifically it depends on the total
input circuit impedance and more specifically yet, it more or less depends on the
sensor resistance. The voltage level where the comparator trips depends on
current (limited internally) and resistance (internal resistance + external
resistance). In some instances the trigger level can be fairly low (~200mV) so a
good, clean, filtered signal may be necessary. It's nothing that can't be solved
with regular filtering practices and good wiring conventions.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 27, 2012, 04:06:06 PM
What parameter is going random when the cut occurs? If it's S Sync Tooth or
Sync Tooth then it could be indicative of noise on the cam input. And yes, I'd
probably considering filtering the cam signal as well. The cam and crank signals
are coming from the same place and being affected by the same noise sources
aren't they?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: TitaniumThirteen on March 28, 2012, 12:11:51 AM
Yup, it's sync tooth parameter that went random.
So it's the cam signal then :-P
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on March 28, 2012, 12:07:56 PM
FWIW, the 1040 has 1k pull downs on both the cam and the crank.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on April 04, 2012, 08:15:11 AM
hi thanks guys for all the help but in the end i got an aem 12 tooth crank wheel
and hall effect sensors
i still have one problem sometimes the ecu gives hell to start up it like you turn
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the ignition switch on
and the ecu wont boot up, there will be no priming of the pump and car wont
start also my lap top wont access it
need some help with that.
thanks.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: TitaniumThirteen on April 04, 2012, 09:15:43 AM
When it boots and connectable, give it a password ASAP :-D
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on April 04, 2012, 12:05:41 PM
splice, what does your Rev/Mod sticker say?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: vprtech on April 07, 2012, 02:55:42 PM
Maybe I missed it, but the CAS used on the 20V 4AGE is falling edge, and there
is no way to switch the polarity. The EMS4 only supports rising edge MAG sensor
signals.
Curious, how did you fit a hall sensor with the 24-1 trigger to the engine, can
you post a picture ?
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 11, 2012, 02:09:57 PM
Having the same problem, 3sgte wont rev past 5k, with or without resistors.
Wires are shielded individually and the harness is custom and has been reopened
and checked for accuracy. All grounds are on only one point. Tried 2
distributors.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on April 11, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
What resistors did you use and what happens when rpm reaches 5000? What
cam and crank pattern? Did you scope them to verify proper waveform or
presence of noise?
A log would be helpful.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 11, 2012, 02:51:21 PM
I used from 5k down to 1k. Installed these from the crank signal to the return
ground wire. In the distributor the return ground is common for both sensors so I
tried each sensor with a resistor individually, both at the same time, etc. I
scoped the signal when the distributor was outside and revd it to find out sensor
polarity and everything checked out. I have not scoped it with the car running.
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Will do that right now.
Here's a datalog with a 1k resistor to sensor ground.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on April 11, 2012, 03:16:49 PM
Check out your Crank Tooth Period. Big spikes upward usually mean the EMS
isn't seeing teeth (long period of time between teeth) while spikes downward
usually mean the EMS is seeing extra teeth (shorter or implausible period of time
between teeth). Sounds like you've got a flakey sensor/distributor or a bad
connection.
Like someone mentioned before, there's some Toyota distributor (from the 4AGE
maybe?) that has a falling edge output that can't be inverted because there's a
single signal ground. Are you sure that your distributor is outputting a rising
edge?
Also, I'd highly recommend using internal logging for logging stuff like this
because of the higher capture rate. You should also record the Cam PER
channel.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 11, 2012, 03:27:35 PM
I'm trying to post the oscoped signal but it doesn't let me.
The 1k resistor across cam and sensor ground seems to help up to 5800 but I
don't see much difference on the signal itsel in the oscope.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on April 11, 2012, 05:14:55 PM
Might be easier to email.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 11, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Send me your email. I'm going to try a signal stabilizer from msd or haltech that
converts it to square wave later on, but wanted to post solutions for people
who might have this issue in the future.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on April 11, 2012, 05:32:14 PM
Click the little envelope icon under my screen name.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on April 11, 2012, 10:41:11 PM
sorry guys i have not been able to post a pic of how i empty out the dizzy and
fitted a hall sensor
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in it preparing for a drag race event this weekend as soon as i can i will post it
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 15, 2012, 02:27:51 PM
Update:
I modified an AEM EPM to use the toyota 3S-GTE distributor base and now it
revs clean all sync issues are gone. Videos and pics coming soon.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: PQatPIT on April 15, 2012, 04:57:54 PM
One thing that might help in situations like this is reversing sensor wires and
selecting the other edge than previously. I have noticed that it affects signal
reading capability somewhat. And you have nothing to lose :)
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 15, 2012, 11:51:21 PM
Q uote from : PQ atPIT on April 15, 2012, 04:57:54 PM
O ne thing that m ight he lp in situations lik e this is re ve rsing se nsor wire s and se le cting the
othe r e dge than pre viously. I have notice d that it affe cts signal re ading capability som e what.
And you have nothing to lose :)
1 - The ems-4 can only trigger on the rising edge of the vr sensor, selecting any
other edge will cause random timing at high rpms.
2 - The toyota distributor has 2 signal wires with one ground, you just can't
invert the wires.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: NS on April 16, 2012, 08:13:04 PM
Q uote from : Modular W iring Solutions on April 15, 2012, 02:27:51 PM
Update :
I m odifie d an AEM EPM to use the toyota 3S-GTE distributor base and now it re vs cle an all sync
issue s are gone . Vide os and pics com ing soon.
Awesome. Glad to see that you got it all sorted now.
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: splice on April 17, 2012, 12:24:37 PM
modular am seriously considering doing this to my car hope you don't mind as i
said i was very busy
preparing for a drag event we had on the weekend didnt get a chance to post a
pic of mine our best
time was 12.1 we have a 4age 20v turbo in an ep82 starlet car breakdown on
the 3rd run drop 2 valves
cause we push the rev to 8650 rpm to help spool the turbo. i believe the turbo
is too big, its a borg warner
s257 the back has a 1.15 A/R am posting a log we did so hope you guys can
give me some feedback
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thanks
Title: Re: toyota 4age 20v
Post by: Modular Wiring Solutions on April 17, 2012, 01:54:42 PM
Just made 530hp to the wheel on a precision 6262 billet non-ball-bearing.
There's no need to rev that motor more than 7500 rpm
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