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Transcript of Lecture MIDPOINTS Presented by Steve Lee at the Online College of Astrology September 18, 1999 Copyright (c) 1999 Online College of Astrology. All rights reserved. ================================================= Ed> Hi, Deirdre Ed> We are a little late getting all this set up Deirdre> Hi Ed Ed> Hi, Cheryl Cheryl> Hi Ed! Ed> Hi, Elizabeth and Beth Ed> Hi, Kaye kaye> hi Beth> Hi Elizabeth> Hi from Elizabeth to everyone Ed> We're not started yet .. I was a little disorganized earlier. Bryan> Where is the lecture? Ed> Hi, Bryan ... the lecture is right here Bryan> Thanks Ed> The lecturer hasn't arrived yet ... although I may have confused him a bit Beth> In what way? Ed> Hi, Deborah and Valarie Ed> Well ... the room wasn't set up as early as it should have been. Valarie> Good evening everybody! Beth> I take it you are the facilitator, Ed? Ed> Yes, more or less, Beth. :-) Valarie> <Val> What is this lecture on tonite? Ed> Steve teaches Uranian astrology and midpoints. I'm not really sure what specifically he's going to talk about, but something in those areas. Beth> Does any one have Solar Fire 4 and if so could you email me on how to set up a Midpoint dial. I checked it out today and was confused. Valarie> <Val> The midpoints would be great--I'm studying Ancient/horary astro and a lot of that is used. I'd like a fuller understanding of it. Ed> oops .. Ihave to do one more thing .. just a sec... kaye> Dial Detective by MariaKay Simms is really a good way to learn about mid points and how to do them Beth> Thank you kaye kaye> for interpretation I have no references Valarie> <Valarie> Has the lecturer arrived? kaye> no Valarie> <Val> Is anyone else here a student of Horary? Beth> kaye I thought Combination of Stellar Influences was supposed to be for interpretations kaye> Mars Pluto conjunction was sept 14 it really made for awful weather Deborah> I gather from an e-mail I just recieved, that Steve is having trouble logging on. And to answer your requestion re Hoary Astrology, no, I am not a student, by I am interested. Ed> Ah ...t here, now I think everything is together Marilynn> Val, have studied some horary kaye> Beth you are correct and Mike Munkaseys midpoint book is good kaye> but Charles Emerson used another book that I have no idea about the title Ed> Hey, here's the man! Val> <Val> Sorry, had to jump out a moment Ed> Welcome, Steve! Deborah> Hello Steve Val> <Val> Welcome to our world! Beth> I know very little about midpoints so this should be interesting. I did your mini lesson. It was engaging. welcome Steve Lee, Lecturer> Hello...... this is disappointing........ let me go back to my email list and give them more details......this room will be hard for some to find.. please wait. Bruce> Welcome, Steve Steve Lee, Lecturer> Is my name appearing ? Ed> Steve ... there is a link at the home page now, all they need to do is follow it here Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK with the link. Thanks. Ed> And, yes, your name appears. It just doesn't appear to you Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK Ed, thanks re: the name. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Beth - glad that you found the mini lesson worthwhile. Elizabeth> I appreciate the name info too. Welcome Steve Steve Lee, Lecturer> I do recoginze some of the names here - so Hello! Deborah> Hello Eve> Hello Steve and group Steve Lee, Lecturer> I will begin the lecture in a few minutes.... Beth> I was happy to have the opportunity to find my Sun/Moon midpoint before this lecture Cheryl> Hi Steve! Val> <Val> Steve, I've never done one of these before--you all seem to be typing faster! Ed> For those of you who might have missed it, Steve lectured here earlier this year, and a transcript of that lecture is in our Library. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Let me begin with a few intro notes, which I may repeat for late-comers. Steve Lee, Lecturer> In this lecture, we will discuss the basics Uranian Astrology, without getting bogged down in the complexities. This lecture is aimed at beginners. Nice and simple, OK ? I will put forth some topics and ideas, and from time to time I will invite questions or comments. If you ask a question at another time, I may not answer it. Please realize that doing a lecture like this takes time and concentration. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Toward the latter half of this lecture, I will invite questions and comments beyond the beginner's level. Now, I must apologize in advance, but I cannot stay for a long time since I must drive down the North Island and pick up an overseas visitor from Singapore. It is a 90 minute drive to Wellington, and she will already be waiting for me nearly 2 hours. Now, you are all welcome to stay here in the lecture hall and discuss Uranian astrology -we have some experienced Uranians here!! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Also, realise that we usually have people joining our lecture late - so I may repeat some of the above messages, so that they know the format. Steve Lee, Lecturer> So, what I ask of all of you, is to just let me put forth a few notes first.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ....and if you want to say hello to new comers, that is OK, but I probably will not get involved.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...because I need to concentrate on the content. OK ? Laurie> Sure thing, Steve. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Right, let's go. I have a limited time before I must drive to Wellington. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Just give me a bit of time .... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Hello everyone. It is a beautiful day down here in New Zealand. The local time is just after 12 noon. It is cloudy but warm - a nice Spring day. And it is good to be here with so many of you. We are going to have an interesting, fun time during this lecture. Steve Lee, Lecturer> It is Sunday, by the way....and Dechen is here - welcome! She is an excellent Uranian, and lives up the North Island - about 11 hours from me. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Blake - great ! welcoome ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK, back to the content. Latecomers, please read all the above notes now... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Many people believe that the use of midpoints is something new. While it is true that with the recent use of computers astrologers now can calculate midpoints effortlessly, Alfred Witte brought midpoint use into the 20th Century, back in the 1920's. Steve Lee, Lecturer> I will repeat a few notes from my previous lecture to set the scene... Steve Lee, Lecturer> However, midpoints were used way before Witte. The mathematician/astrologer Guido Bonati used midpoints around the year 1270. He successfully used them for military invasions. Also, while Arab astrologers may not have used midpoints as we know them, they of course used what we call "Arabic Parts". The symmetry here is remarkable and closely aligned with midpoints. For example, Fortuna or The Part of Fortune has an axis of symmetry with the Sun, Moon, and the Ascendent. If you were to see this on a chart, you could easily see the midpoint structure. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Witte was a genius, and it has been said that he introduced the first major advance in interpretational techniques since Ptolemy ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Here is one instance of what Witte found. He noticed that the combination of MC = Me/Ve was in the charts of artists. What does this mean? Well, we read this as: " The midpoint of Mercury and Venus is on the MC - Midheaven." You will need to know this terminology, this format, during this lecture. Steve Lee, Lecturer> For those of you who read my other introductory article to this lecture, and perhaps also have done the "Mini Lesson", you will know that I have said that learning midpoint astrology is easy. It is ! It is also precise and accurate, giving you some wonderful insights. Is it easy to become an expert in Uranian astrology? No, it is not any easier than becoming an expert in any other field of astrology. It takes time and experience to master any advanced level of astrology. However, it really is not (contrary to what some people believe) difficult to learn the basics. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Alfred Witte was an outstanding German astrologer of the early 20th century and the founder of the Hamburg School of Astrology who wrote over 40 articles as well as the first "Rules for Planetary Pictures". Steve Lee, Lecturer> By the way, Symmetrical Astrology is a term that I have proposed to include both Cosmobiology and Uranian and other similar forms. Steve Lee, Lecturer> In the last 3 months I have travelled to Australia, Auckland (NZ), Germany, Holland, the USA and Mexico... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...talking talking talking with many astrologers about Symmetrical methods - mainly Uranian, but not entirely... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...and what did I find??? Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...well, stay tuned.... a bit later....OK? Steve Lee, Lecturer> back to content... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Many of you will have heard of the 8 Transneptunian Planets. I prefer to call the POINTS, because to me they appear to be energy points and not real planets. Does this bother some of you? Don't let it bother you because I can assure you that the TNPs work - that is, they give us some great insights. The TNPs have been used by hundreds of astrologers for over 50 years, with excellent results. And don't forget that many astrologers also use points that are not 'real physical planets' - for example: Fortuna, the Vertex, etc. And please do not call the TNPs imaginary - they may be hypothetical planets or energy points, but it is not correct to label them imaginary. Steve Lee, Lecturer> But we do not have to use TNPs to do Uranian Astrology. This often surprises some astrologers. What I mean is that Alfred Witte and others gave us different techniques that stand on their own, without the need to use TNPs. When I was in Hamburg Germany in July, I met with some excellent Uranian astrologers, and they told me that sometimes they will not use the TNPs - but of course usually the TNPs are used! Steve Lee, Lecturer> What makes Uranian so different ? Steve Lee, Lecturer> Why does it appear so very DIFFERENT to other forms of astrology? Steve Lee, Lecturer> Well, for a start, we use 360 and 90 charts and dials... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...and for the most part, we do not use houses... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...OK, this is a little controversial, the house thing.. Steve Lee, Lecturer> but Witte and others like Lefeldt DID IN FACT USE HOUSE SYSTEMS! Steve Lee, Lecturer> But this house system is not what traditional astrology uses... Steve Lee, Lecturer> It is fair to say that many Uranians do not use house systems.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Oh, by the way, if I drop out of this lecture, it is due to my local ISP... Steve Lee, Lecturer> and I am not running away! Steve Lee, Lecturer> so just wait and I will come back LOL :-)) Steve Lee, Lecturer> So, let me make a conclusion or an overview... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Hey, this is difficult to do without diagrams and charts ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> But here goes... Steve Lee, Lecturer> In Uranian astrology, it really is so much simpler than most traditional methods... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...because we do not worry about the zodiac and houses ... and.. Steve Lee, Lecturer> associated rulerships and exaltations etc etc Steve Lee, Lecturer> Uranians (in my opinion) look at the rest of astrology and see a confused mess! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Well, OK, this may not be fair - I just put this to shake some of you up....HA ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> But the point is that Uranians generally see their methods as being more accurate and scientific... Deborah> Whose shook up -- I agree! :-o Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...but this does not mean that it only has to do with non-metaphysical or non-psychological issues... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Uranian often gets a bad rap ... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ..,..some people believe it is too event orientated.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> This is a point, somewhat valid.... but I put it to all of you that our inner world IS AFFECTED BY OUR OUTER WORLD.. Steve Lee, Lecturer> What happens to us on the outside affects us on the inside, and vice-versa... Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK, I will pause here and let anyone make a comment.....especially our Uranian experts here ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Or questions.. Laurie> ? Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK then , I will go on... Laurie> ? --> This is me raising my hand. <g> Steve Lee, Lecturer> From my previous lecture I had this... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Laurie, you have a Q ? Laurie> Yes... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Go ahead.. Laurie> Could you talk a little about the house system that Witte and Lefeldt used? Steve Lee, Lecturer> Ahhh ! Good question ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Boy, this is so hard to do with out graphics, but I will try... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Latecomers....please read the above :-)) especially the intro notes. Ed> At some point we can probably arrange graphics, Steve. :-) Deborah> Graphics would be appreciated. Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK - the house system as per Witte and Lefeldt is not used as exactly like Placidus, etc.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Dr. Heike Pott from Hamburg - a wonderful woman who gave me over 2 days of her time... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Gave my email list members a graphic page of all this.,,,, but let me ... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Hmmmnnn.... well, for a start, we put the pointer on such things as the Ascendant and then use the associated house system... Steve Lee, Lecturer> is this making sense ? Laurie> Not yet. <g> Marilynn> Like a derived house system? Steve Lee, Lecturer> Then, one has to use PAIRS of houses... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...not the usual 1 to 12 system. Steve Lee, Lecturer> But wait.... let me make things simpler... Steve Lee, Lecturer> and a little controversial ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Look...... what I found in my 2 months of travels is there is not ONE way to do Uranian astrology! Steve Lee, Lecturer> IF IF we are purists, and accept Witte's and Lefeldt's teachings... Steve Lee, Lecturer> then we must use their house system. Steve Lee, Lecturer> But some Uranians - or maybe I should say astrologers who use some Uranian techniques... Steve Lee, Lecturer> just use Placidus or Koch or Meridian houses- with good results !!! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Egad - Dr. Pott would thump me now, but it is true! Laurie> ? Steve Lee, Lecturer> Dechen and Blake, can you help me here please ? Dechen> The beauty is it is so pin point accurate with timing of events and events are an empirical measure of and influence. Personally I think you miss heaps of information without the house systems in fact witte had 5 house systems the most important of which was the Meridian house system Steve Lee, Lecturer> A note about far north latitudes.... Dechen> The meridian house system is associated with the soul of the person so is the most personal Steve Lee, Lecturer> CAUTION.... if a chart is of a high latitude, say more than 55 or 60 degrees, all except Meridian houses will be terribly distorted! Dechen> The other systems (i think and am not an expert) are equal house Steve Lee, Lecturer> In general, I like to point out to astrlogers that they should THINK about what house system they use, and WHY.E Laurie> Steve? Steve Lee, Lecturer> sorry - typo - omit the E Steve Lee, Lecturer> go ahead... Laurie> If you have this graphic of Witte and Lefeldt's house system... Laurie> is there anyway you could get it onto one of your websites?... Laurie> It would be most interesting to see. ga Laurie> (ga = go ahead) Steve Lee, Lecturer> Yes, OK, I must put something on my web site. Dechen can you remember if Heike has the graphics on her site? Dechen> no I dont remember Steve Lee, Lecturer> Laurie, you can email me about this. Do you have my address? Marilynn> Steve, what of the pair of houses you mentioned? are these polarities of houses (ie 2, 8)? Laurie> No, what is your email address? Steve Lee, Lecturer> No - not polarities....good question thanks ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> More like parallel houses....like ... Steve Lee, Lecturer> egad - I need a diagram... Marilynn> maybe like antiscia? Steve Lee, Lecturer> imagine the pointer - do you use a dial ???? Steve Lee, Lecturer> YES - like antiscia - thank you ! Dechen> but the other sets of house systems the ascendant the sun the moon ... whats the other are used to look at thate Marilynn> ahhh! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Wow - time is flying on. I must pause here... Beth> What is antiscia? Steve Lee, Lecturer> If you joined late, let me repeat this note: Steve Lee, Lecturer> Now, I must apologize in advance, but I cannot stay for a long time since I must drive down the North Island and pick up an overseas visitor from Singapore. It is a 90 minute drive to Wellington, and she will already be waiting for me nearly 2 hours. Now, you are all welcome to stay here in the lecture hall and discuss Uranian astrology -we have some experienced Uranians here!! Steve Lee, Lecturer> But I will stay here for a little while longer.... Dechen> for instance the ascendant indicates the type of community that you associate with, the sun, the physical body, Steve Lee, Lecturer> Let me conclude with a few notes, then I will open it to questions and comments... Steve Lee, Lecturer> please wait a bit.... Dechen> the moon the emotions women children Steve Lee, Lecturer> thanks Dechen.. Steve Lee, Lecturer> One point I would like to include before I leave, is about relationship astrology using Uranian techniques... Steve Lee, Lecturer> In relationship astrology, the compatiblity of couples is often analyzed. Now, what would you say to a client or a couple who had the following ? His natal Venus falls exactly on her Sun/Mars midpoint as well as on her Jupiter/Ascendent midpoint. Also, her Mars activates his Sun/Jupiter midpoint. Would you advise them to go ahead and get married, or to forget it and "call it quits" ?? Well, these combinations are VERY positive ! This data is from a real-life couple living in Germany. They have been married for over 50 years and have always been devoted to one another. Steve Lee, Lecturer> the above paragraph is from my previous lecture...but to add... Steve Lee, Lecturer> that once you know how to use DIALS... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...it is so so revealing, and fun...to do relationship astrology... Steve Lee, Lecturer> All one needs to do is to use a bi-dial.,,.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> which means two concentric rings, with each person's natal chart on each ring... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Hey everyone.... using dials and especially the 90 degree dial... Steve Lee, Lecturer> is part of Alfred Witte's GIFT TO US ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Now, this lecture is also a way to tell everyone that OCA has classes on this !! Steve Lee, Lecturer> I will be teaching two classes... Steve Lee, Lecturer> one on basic dial techniques,,,, Steve Lee, Lecturer> and the other on Uranian astology. Steve Lee, Lecturer> All info is on the OCA web site, so go have a good look - you will find some interesting info! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Also, please go to my web site - there are pages and pages - a huge amount of material.. Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...to keep you interested with all Symmetrical items for hours ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> A note about Symmetry... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...this is the beauty of Uranian (and Cosmobiology)... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...when you use dials and their charts, you can see the wonderful symmetry unfold before your eyes!!!! Fun ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> right Dechen ? Dechen> Steve I have found the charts you put up in preparation for this lecture really interesting and informative about Uranian astrology Dechen> fascinating starting with Muhammad Ali Steve Lee, Lecturer> There is a link to Dechen's web site, from my site (a link to my site is on the OCA site) and you will see some good examples of Uranian methods. Laurie> Steve? Dechen> Have the others here looked at them? Steve Lee, Lecturer> Yes, and I think over 300 - maybe 400 people have seen these intro charts ! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Let me conclude and open this to Qs and comments... Marilynn> Steve, how do Uranians work with timing such as transits? most of the events seem to appear inherent in the natal planetary trees, but when? Steve Lee, Lecturer> There is A LOT of interest in Uranian methods all over the world.... two examples... Steve Lee, Lecturer> 1. Have a look at Albert Timashev's web site in Russia. (the English page).... Steve Lee, Lecturer> an excellent site... let's see if I have the URL... Steve Lee, Lecturer> http://www.astrologer.ru/Witte/biography_eng.html Steve Lee, Lecturer> 2. When I lectured in Monterrey Mexico last month, there certainly was much interest in Uranian methods - the astrologers there were quite excited by it all!! Steve Lee, Lecturer> And here is my site's URL... Steve Lee, Lecturer> http://members.tripod.com/~junojuno2/index2.htm Steve Lee, Lecturer> Remember, this is a huge resource for all to use....the largest such site on the Net....and Much more will be added! Steve Lee, Lecturer> I suggest that you go to the links page and surf over to the best Uranian sites featured....and print out the material, including... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Albert's Russian site.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...and of course a lot of the intro material on my site... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Your astrology will improve quickly when you use these new methods! Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK, must wind up. Our Singapore visitor has just landed in Wellington. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Questions? Comments? Dechen> You have made a fantastic contribution to astrology Steve Laurie> Steve? Steve Lee, Lecturer> You know something, Dechen ? Dechen> yes?? Steve Lee, Lecturer> I am only able to do all of this because of excellent astrologers like yourself....and I do mean this... Beth> Laurie I love your questions :-D Ed> Steve, thank you very much for taking the time to do this lecture! Laurie> Thanks Beth :-) Ed> And a brief note for everyone ... Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...we are all so better connected due to the Net! Ed> The transcript of this lecture will be available in our Library here at OCA in a day or two ... Dechen> yes yes yes Ed> if you missed something, or if you just want to read and review it. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Blake, are you still here? Steve Lee, Lecturer> well, maybe not, but... Blake> Yes, I am here, but eating dinner at the same time... hands are busy with food. Sorry. Laurie> Quick question, Steve? Steve Lee, Lecturer> I want to say that Blake has contributed so much to Uranian astrology, mainly behind the scenes.. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Oh - you ARE here! Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...and Blake's web site is excellent - can you give us the URL? Blake> Yes, I wanted to comment about the houses. I use them but most Uranians don't seem to bother. Steve Lee, Lecturer> Almost forgot ...by future predictions..!!! Steve Lee, Lecturer> OK, I will let Blake comment on the houses, but one last comment before I drive off... Blake> My site is specialized, focused on developing understanding of TNPs, much from a psychological perspective. Dechen> The effort that is being put in at the moment is to transform the interpretations from being negative and event orientated to being psycholgical Steve Lee, Lecturer> the future of Uranian / Symmetrical / Cosmobiology... I do really believe that we are in the midst of a revolution.... Steve Lee, Lecturer> Gone are the days when Uranian material was so hard to find... Blake> And just was ready to mention Heike Pott's name as she entered the room... a Hamburg School astrologer experienced with houses. Steve Lee, Lecturer> ...and gone are the days when it was hard to learn, or to find anyone to talk to about Uranian! Steve Lee, Lecturer> There are some exciting new ideas coming forth. Example - Blake's new info on the TNPs... heikepott> only I don't quite know whether these word will reach you ? Steve Lee, Lecturer> These innovative ideas will change the way we look at astrology, and will... Dechen> to assist the individual to look at their life and the parameters they work within ... positive transformation Steve Lee, Lecturer> bring forth a new era.... Ed> Words are reaching us loud and clear! Steve Lee, Lecturer> ....some will stay as purists - and they are to respected ! Blake> Well, the material was hard to find because there were arguments over copyrights, reneging on publishing agreements, and sometimes people who wanted to maintain exclusive access. Steve Lee, Lecturer> But others will go on and develop new methods, and some will incorporate Uranian methods into traditional astology - this can lead to problems if you are not careful and you must be experienced ! Blake> I also use the houses, but not according to any sort of papal edict. Dechen> hear hear Steve Lee, Lecturer> To, end, I will say that over the last 3 months I have met with some incredible astrologers - so gifted, so experienced, and so friendly....and many were sprititully atuned. heikepott> Heike> if I only knew what apappaapl edict is ? Blake> Steve, you are right about combining methods, but many Uranian methods, except perhaps the TNPs, existed historically already. Steve Lee, Lecturer> I'll have to say "Adios" now. Thanks for staying and being patient. You can stay longer - Dechen and Blake have a lot of knowledge to share!! Steve Lee, Lecturer> Bye ! Ed> Steve, thank you again, it was great! Dechen> a method dictated from a higher authority Cheryl> Thanks, Steve! Blake> Papal edict means a strict law sent out by one authority that everyone must follow or be excommunicated. Dechen> bye Steve Beth> Laurie What was your question? Ed> And as Steve said, y'all can hang around as long as you like. Laurie> <g> I was going to ask about other significant midpoints... Dechen> go ahead Laurie> In the mini-lesson Steve talked about looking for 8th harmonic aspects to the Sun/Moon midpoint... Laurie> from other planets in the chart... Laurie> I checked, and I have none... Laurie> I also looked for 8th harmonic aspects to my Asc/MC midpoint... Laurie> Nothing <g>... Laurie> Perhaps this means I am a nonentity <gg>... Dechen> I find that hard to believe heikepott> Heike> good bye everyone, good night, pity but I have to sleep, best wishes for all Laurie> but the question I wanted to ask was... Dechen> bye Heike Laurie> if there are any other major midpoints that are key in the personality... Ed> Heike, good night, thanks for coming Blake> Good night, Heike. Laurie> aside from Sun/Moon and Asc/MC. ga Laurie> Perhaps not. <gg> Dechen> The Sun Moon and the Ascendant Nidheaven midpoints I find to be the major midpoints but one would need to look at the chart concerned Laurie> Perhaps I should check for Uranians aspects to those midpoints... Laurie> I didn't try that yet. <gg> Laurie> TNPs, I mean. Blake> Yes, you will find useful info if you check the TNP aspects, Laurie. Dechen> Whatever midpoint you look at the midpoint tree attached to it must involve the personal points, sun moon ascendant midheaven and node for it to be important in that individuals life Laurie> Ah, now that's good to know. Beth> How do the asteroids come into play if at all? Dechen> Many Uranian astrologers are ecclectic and use whatever information is available and meaningful Blake> The asteroids come into play just like the planets. Refer to Emma Belle Donath's Asteroids in Midpoints. Laurie> Does Donath also include Chiron in there? Blake> Uranians are open to the idea of other planets, so some use asteroids. Others feel they have enough information already. Beth> Thank you Blake. Can you tell us what other books are out there that may focus on interpretation? Blake> Donath does not include Chiron. Martha Lang Wescott does, though. Laurie> Okay, thanks! Dechen> I have for many years been interested in Chiron and Atlantis because I see their important positions but one needs to beware of information overload Laurie> True. Dechen> where there are so many points it is difficult to make sense of anything Blake> Martha Wescott's book Orders of Light is "dynamite" in the positive sense. She brings the TNPs out of the World War battlezone and into the turn of the 21st century. Blake> Even if you don't want to use ANY asteroids or Chiron, you can still use Martha's Orders of Light as a superb reference to understand the nature of the TNPs. Laurie> I'll add that one to my To Buy list! Dechen> Also the work of Eileen Nauman on interpreation of the transneptunians Blake> And Ruth Brummund wrote a revised edition of the Rulebook that included psychological keywords. I will be publishing the English translation soon. Deborah> Blake and Dechen, how would you suggest someone relatively new to Uranian astrology, approach a dial -- with or without TNPs? with or without Asteroids? Or stick only to natal and directed aspects? You really can get overwhelmed with all of the aforementioned in one chart! Laurie> Excellent, Blake! Blake> If you are getting accustomed to the dial and you are interested only in Cosmobiology without TNPs, then of course you can leave them out. Dechen> available on line in the medicine garden http://www.medicinegarden.com Beth> I know this is a personal question but my mars squares my sun/moon midpoint exactly. It's in Pisces in the 12th house conjunct my Venus in Aries rising Blake> But if you are interested in learning the dial AND TNPs, by all means, you can put the TNPs in.... whatever "floats your boat" as they say. Laurie> Which is cjn Venus? Mars or Sun/Moon? Beth> Venus Deborah> Blake, I would rather stay away from houses and signs altogether -- I guess you can say, that that floats my boat. :-)) Laurie> Is Mars cjn Venus or Sun/Moon cjn Venus? Deborah> I guess that would be Uranian w/TNPs, and Asteroids... ? I think I will wait and see how badly I am overwhelmed, if at all. Blake> Another excellent oft-overlooked reference if you want psychological interps for planets without TNPs is Planets in Containment by Sandbach & Ballard. Deborah> Thank you. I will see about finding a copy of Planets in Containment. Beth> Mars in pisces cjn Venus in Aries in the 12th house. Mars is at 28 dgrees squaring my 29 degree sagittarius sun/Moon midpoint Blake> Well, you don't have to use the signs or houses if you don't want to. Laurie> Got it now, thx, Beth. :-) Pete> Blake what is your URL ? Deborah> I guess you can say, I tend to be more of a purist. I was when I was studying Sidereal Astrology (Cyril Fagan) Blake> Uranian techniques are so numerous and varied that you should pick and choose the ones that work best with your natural mindset. Blake> Rarely are there Uranian Astrologers that use Everything All the Time. Deborah> Strangely enough, I have the feeling I may have found my niche with Uranian Astrology, but it will take some time working with the dials to find out if my gut level reaction is correct or not. Blake> There has been very little literature on houses available in English up to this point, so they are not widely used yet. This will change. Beth> Laurie - It was fun chatting with you! Laurie> Same here, Beth! You an OCA student? Beth> Yes as of today Laurie> Which class(es)? Deborah> I hope there is more and more literature in the years to come. It seems hard enough to find copies of books right now. Lord knows I have spent enough time on the internet searching out a copy of Language of Uranian Astrology. Blake> And Language of Uranian Astrology has a thorough explanation of the house systems according to papal edict. Laurie> <g> Laurie> Who wrote that book, Blake? Deborah> I am hoping that someone somehow has the ability to find a way to get the Lanugage of Uranian Astrology back into print. Anyone up for it? Beth> Astro 101. I am a long time student of astrology - self taught with major gaps. I've been out of it for about 15 years and getting back to it with Uranus on my Sun. I'm an Aquarian Deborah> Jacobson write Language of Uranian Astrology. Laurie> Thanks, Deborah. Blake> I just started a new Uranian website for developing understanding of the TNPs and new ideas in astrology. www.sirius.com/~finblake/UranBeacon.htm Dechen> I bought a copy last year through one of the secondhand bookshops Deborah> You are quite welcome, Laurie. Amazon.com seems to have used copies that they can lay their hands on, if you are interested. Well, at least they did, last time I checked. Ed> Blake and Dechen, I want to thank you for carrying on this discussion after Steve had to leave. It's fascinating, and I'm glad we could get all the additional info. Blake> I also got my first copy of "Language" second hand. Not easy to find. Dechen> which is really exciting to see new perspectives being presented Laurie> (Beth, check your chat window.) Laurie> I'll check out Amazon.com, Deborah! Dechen> email symmetrial astrology someone may have a copy or know of one Deborah> Back to the question, are there problems getting Language reprinted, or does anyone know? I won't ask if anyone knows about the status of the copyright. Blake> Steve has done a great job of getting Uranians to connect and share. Blake> Language was published by Uranian Publications in Franksville Wisconsin (outside Chicago). A very small publishing company. Deborah> I wish we all could do this more often. I don't think there are very many Uranian types here in Southern California -but I always could be wrong. I was shocked to find Steve's web site. Steve's web site is what got me into working with Uranian astrology. Ed> Hello, CME and Judy Blake> Yes, Uranians have come out of the woodwork thanks much to Steve's efforts. Dechen> ok back to the question about where to start start with your chart and the people closest to you, plot the planets and points you want to look at around the dial and consider the meanings. Deborah> Oh, thank you for the possible publisher to Language, Blake. I will look it up in the U.S. Patent files, well what I can find through their search engines. It couldn't hurt to find out if it is in public domaine, which I doubt, but what the heck! :-) Dechen> When I started I couldnt get Uranian books but read Hand's Planetary Symbols which brought a new understanding of planetary interaction to me Blake> Actually I know the owner of Uranian Publications, and he told me he has lost contact with Roger Jacobson. I doubt it is public domain. Deborah> P.S. I work at a law firm and have worked in law for the past 18+ years. I am not an attorney, but have a distinct warp to the way I tend to think. :-) I call it brain burn! Blake> I will try to keep my eye out for copies and forward it for Steve to put it on the Symmetrical website. Deborah> I have a cousin who has published several books (not on astrology) and they are, I believe, good for copyright for up to something like 75 years -- don't quote me on it. Blake> Yes, Robert Hand' Planetary Symbols is a fantastic book for learning how to use your own brain to put together the components of midpoint configurations. Ed> Copyright nowadays is the life of the author plus 75 years, Deborah. (In most countries) Deborah> I'm sorry that the publisher has lost contact with Jacobson. Dechen> not positive or negative but just pairs of planetary energies in which one needed to consider the other influences on the planetary tree when making a judgement Blake> But of course Hand's book is for Cosmobiology... doesn't include TNPs. Blake> Yes, I agree with Dechen. The weakness of the old Rulebook and Combination of Stellar Influences... Not enough recognition that anything can be positive OR negative. Dechen> Hand is a closet Uranian in fact when John and I asked him what these symbols meant back in 84 he was so enthusiastic in their explanations Deborah> Copyright depends on the time in which the book was originally published. Actually, as I was trying to set up a site involving Sideral Astrology and the works of Cyril Fagan, I ran into horrendous copyright problems, including those publications from the 1940s-1950s which are potentially under public domaine becuase the author was not informed of the fact that they had additional time to their copyright which they could apply for. They didn't apply, and subsequently, the copyrights went into public domaine. Blake> The book I mentioned by John Sandbach and Ron Ballard presents negative vs positive for each planetary combination. Dechen> do your own chart look at the midpoints look at what has been written and think how does this apply to me Dechen> In fact the two transnetunians that give people the most anxiety when looking at them in their chart are Hades and Admetos which have had really bad press in the beginning Deborah> Have any of you got specific books for delineation that you use more than others... e.g., Language of Uranian Astrology? Particularly when it comes to combining the influences in midpoint trees? Blake> Interesting info about Robert Hand and the TNPs. That say s a lot as he is a highly competent and brilliant astrologer. Dechen> but infact these are very exciting points ....... yes Hand loves Uranian astrology Dechen> Looking at the chart of Paul Simon that Steve has set up as part of his mini lesson we see that he has Hades at 19 43 Aires and sun at 19 34 so we express this in Uranian language as sun = hades Blake> Admetos and especially Hades DO get bad press. And Hades is in fact can be difficult to deal with as can Saturn or Neptune... but there is a positive side. Laurie> I'd love to hear positive meanings for Admetos and Hades. <g> Blake> For those who asked about houses, Heike Pott is highly experienced with them and she has a website, maybe still in German only... but later in English, maybe. Dechen> He has Moon at 17 03 cancer with the Sun(Hades)/Moon (midpoint) = venus and Midheaven (just a little off center) Blake> Heike is at www.heikepott.de Keep it on your favorite list in case she develops some English pages. Blake> On my Uranian Astrology Beacon website I am developing observations on positive interps for Hades. Dechen> and as Steve pointed out some of his greatest music was about suffering the Bridge over Troubled water Graceland etc Laurie> Thanks, Blake, will stop by! Blake> Also there is a negative side to Apollon and Cupido... All things have "good" and "bad" in them. Laurie> Yes. Blake> And I have translated a lot of Lefeldt's interps of planets (incl) TNPs in houses, but working on getting them published. Blake> The Lefeldt stuff was written in the 1950s so kind of negative and fatalistic sometimes. Deborah> Maybe I have an odd view, but I would assume an astrological body, e.g., Saturn, would only have one basic vibration or energy, neither positive or negative, and it is a matter of how it is combined in the aspects of a chart, and/or how the individual chooses to use that energy as to how it is manifested. Or am I being a purist again? Blake> Actually I am working on a book of interpretations for TNPs in the houses... on the back burner. Laurie> Sounds great. :-) Deborah> Blake, I am interested. Let us know when the book comes to the front burner. :-) Dechen> Looking at that midpoint tree the Sun/moon also = mercury/node, jupiter/chiron, kronos/vulcanus ascendant/saturn, uranus Blake> Deborah, I agree with you.... there is one basic energy that manifests in ways that due to our personal and cultural lenses tend to view as "positive" or "negative". Laurie> Thanks for all the terrific information, Blake and Dechen! Goodnight now! Dechen> night Ed> Laurie, thanks for coming! Nite! Blake> Thanks for the stimulating info exchange. Ciao! Deborah> Blake, it's good to know I am not alone in that view. Many tropical astrolgers have chided me over my views -- not that I pay a lot of attention to them! Laurie> Nite Ed! Nite everyone! Deborah> Thanks for the informative chat. Hope to see [?] you all again soon. Blake> OK, before I leave. Yes, the thing is I think that polarizing the info into pos and neg helps objectify, though. G'night! Ed> Dechen and Blake, thanks again for all your work tonight! Dechen> a pleasure Ed Deborah> I will think that through, Blake. Night Bale, Dechen and Ed. Thanks again. Ed> Nite, everyone! See you, Deborah!